Archive:2007-12-02/Log

Here is what was said, as recorded by me, the Moderator:

 Dec 02 12:16:07 &lt;paulproteus>	I'm going to get this show on the road. Everyone, please introduce yourselves: Name, Chapter if any, and anything else short you want to say about yourself.

Dec 02 12:16:13 &lt;paulproteus>	&lt;DEBATE>

Dec 02 12:16:43 &lt;fear_of_c>	Nicholas LaRacuente, Swarthmore College

Dec 02 12:16:47 &lt;e-star>	Elizabeth Stark, Harvard Free Culture

Dec 02 12:16:54 &lt;mecredis>	Fred Benenson, FC @ NYU, currently in the middle of final projects for grad school

Dec 02 12:17:12 &lt;grahl>	Jan Hendrih Grahl, Florida Free Culture

Dec 02 12:17:13 &lt;skyfaller>	Nelson Pavlosky, GMU Law (not yet a chapter)

Dec 02 12:17:18 &lt;stina5252>	Christina Ducruet, Brown Free Culture

Dec 02 12:17:30 &lt;e-star>	paulproteus: yah, in the interest of final exams/papers, probably best to keep things short and sweet

Dec 02 12:17:41 &lt;paulproteus>	I'll do my best. (-:

Dec 02 12:17:47 &lt;cameronparkins>	Cameron Parkins, University of Southern California

Dec 02 12:17:50 &lt;driscoll>	Kevin Driscoll, MIT Free Culture, taking a happy break from writing papers.

Dec 02 12:18:12 &lt;e-star>	paulproteus: can you give candidates +v?

Dec 02 12:18:14 &lt;e-star>	helps to identify them

Dec 02 12:18:25 *	paulproteus gives voice to cameronparkins

Dec 02 12:18:48 *	paulproteus gives voice to driscoll

Dec 02 12:18:53 *	paulproteus gives voice to e-star

Dec 02 12:18:57 *	paulproteus gives voice to fear_of_c

Dec 02 12:19:10 *	paulproteus gives voice to grahl

Dec 02 12:19:19 *	paulproteus gives voice to mecredis

Dec 02 12:19:28 *	paulproteus gives voice to skyfaller

Dec 02 12:19:34 *	paulproteus gives voice to stina5252

Dec 02 12:19:45 &lt;paulproteus>	Did I miss anyone?

Dec 02 12:19:49 &lt;skyfaller>	paulproteus: mllerustad said she'll be late or absent

Dec 02 12:19:52 &lt;e-star>	driscoll

Dec 02 12:19:53 &lt;paulproteus>	skyfaller, /me nods

Dec 02 12:20:06 &lt;skyfaller>	hm? he got driscoll

Dec 02 12:20:09 &lt;e-star>	oh oops

Dec 02 12:20:14 &lt;e-star>	yah, he did

Dec 02 12:20:19 &lt;skyfaller>	gotcha!

Dec 02 12:20:28 &lt;e-star>	and pyrak is also not here yet?

Dec 02 12:20:34 &lt;skyfaller>	yeah, seems to be afk

Dec 02 12:20:36 &lt;paulproteus>	Yes, so he's not voiced.

Dec 02 12:20:40 &lt;e-star>	k

Dec 02 12:20:45 &lt;paulproteus>	Okay, thanks all for coming by.

Dec 02 12:21:50 &lt;paulproteus>	We'll have the same format as last debate: First some questions which everyone will have to answer, and then you get to grill each other individually.

Dec 02 12:22:00 &lt;paulproteus>	Please end your answers with &lt;/answer> so I know you're done.

Dec 02 12:22:17 *	hmorsi (n=hmorsi@62.117.49.19) has joined #freeculture

Dec 02 12:22:21 &lt;paulproteus>	Hey hmorsi!

Dec 02 12:22:23 &lt;paulproteus>	You're just in time.

Dec 02 12:22:31 &lt;paulproteus>	Please introduce yourself and pay attention to the first question:

Dec 02 12:22:33 &lt;paulproteus>	Why are you running for Board election rather than sitting out of the board and participating through the Core Team? &lt;/question>

Dec 02 12:22:38 &lt;paulproteus>	You all get 6 minutes.

Dec 02 12:22:54 *	paulproteus gives voice to hmorsi

Dec 02 12:23:39 *	pyrak is late

Dec 02 12:23:54 &lt;paulproteus>	pyrak, No prob, just answer the above within 5 minutes now. (+ introduce yourself when you can)

Dec 02 12:24:28 &lt;hmorsi>	Hello all

Dec 02 12:24:34 &lt;e-star>	hey hani!

Dec 02 12:24:44 &lt;paulproteus>	Hey hani, now everyone please focus on the question. (-:

Dec 02 12:24:44 &lt;e-star>	paulproteus: pyrak +v?

Dec 02 12:25:03 &lt;hmorsi>	I am Hani Morsi, this fall I founded SFFC's chapter at the American University in Cairo

Dec 02 12:25:12 *	paulproteus gives voice to pyrak

Dec 02 12:25:17 &lt;mecredis>	It seems to me that the "core" team goes in and out of defunctness, while on the other hand, the board has become an established part of the organization. I was also nominated for the board, so it seems that someone else wants me here. I've been in the position before and I believe I did a good job at representing Free Culture to the rest of the world.

Dec 02 12:25:26 &lt;pyrak>	One reason I'm running for the board to ensure that the decision-making body has a voice from the younger age group involved in the movement.

Dec 02 12:25:38 &lt;paulproteus>	(Do remember to close your answers with &lt;/answer>.)

Dec 02 12:26:08 &lt;pyrak>	(I'm Parker Phinney a senior at Chadwick School, a k-12 in so cal)

Dec 02 12:26:13 &lt;mecredis>	&lt;/answe>

Dec 02 12:26:27 &lt;grahl>	Apart from seeing it as a great opportunity to help steer SFC, one reason for me is to make sure that the pool of applicants is large enough to make the process more democratic, so nobody is elected simply by accepting a nomination. Furthermore, for outsiders it's not really visible where board and core separate and if I were elected I would want to make that distinction clearer. &lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:26:44 &lt;fear_of_c>	I think that the core team is designed for the "down and dirty" aspects of the execution of tasks, whereas the board is more about the long-range, high-level planning and organizational direction

Dec 02 12:27:06 &lt;fear_of_c>	ideally, I'd like to be involved in both aspects

Dec 02 12:27:23 &lt;paulproteus>	(2 min)

Dec 02 12:27:33 &lt;e-star>	I think it's good for the organization to have numerous qualified members running for the board, of which I think I am one. Of course if not elected to the board, I will continue participating via the core team. As I have stated, one of the goals of the new board should be in helping to resurrect the core team, so if elected, I look forward to working with the dedicated core members of SFFC. For now, the core team has gone somewhat

Dec 02 12:27:45 &lt;e-star>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:27:45 &lt;skyfaller>	e-star: cut off at "somewha"

Dec 02 12:27:46 &lt;pyrak>	Although the board is not explicity created to carry out tasks, but rather to make decisions, I think that being on the board will put me in a position to serve as an example for the rest of the movement, and I feel prepared and qualified to do that.

Dec 02 12:28:01 &lt;e-star>	For now, the core team has gone somewhat dormant, and I hope to change this. &lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:28:13 *	parkerhiggins_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

Dec 02 12:28:21 &lt;hmorsi>	I am a graduate student working on an MA in Economics in International Development. The reason I am running for the Board is mainly due to its more general and holistic nature with respect to decision-making. Being the only non US-based chapter among the nominations which would add a necessary international prespective to SFFC

Dec 02 12:28:28 &lt;skyfaller>	I want to make sure that the board takes all of the necessary steps to hire a paid coordinator. Most of the other candidates seem to agree that a paid coordinator is necessary, but I consider it to be the board's highest priority, in order to ensure the long-term survival of the organization. I will push very hard to get funding, complete 501(c)3 etc. and whatever else is necessary to hire a paid coordinator.

Dec 02 12:29:07 &lt;fear_of_c>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:29:21 &lt;pyrak>	because the movement is such a large part of my life.

Dec 02 12:29:23 &lt;driscoll>	I see myself playing two roles as a member of the board. The first is as a mediator, drawing on my experience teaching high school. The second is as a guardian and champion for the culture of the organization. I think we need to make a concerted effort to catalog the work that we are doing and have done to support future growth. &lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:29:24 &lt;pyrak>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:29:49 &lt;paulproteus>	skyfaller, cameronparkins, stina5252, &lt;/answer>s?

Dec 02 12:29:51 &lt;skyfaller>	Being on the core team wouldn't be so bad, but I think according to the bylaws the core team can be overruled by the Board, so being on the Board is necessary to ensure that a paid coordinator is hired as quickly as possible.&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:29:53 &lt;stina5252>	The main reason I am running for the board is out of a respect for the organization and the time commitment I can honestly forsee myself fulfilling in the next year+. Since I will be graduating in may, I feel I would not be an effective core member as I would not be in touch with the chapter experience. I am interested in serving SFC as a board member because I feel I could bring a lot to...

Dec 02 12:29:54 &lt;stina5252>	...the decision making that is central to the duties of the board. Additionally, I was nominated for the role by a current board member, which gives me faith that my work with SFC so far has been deemed on par with the current direction and goals of the organization

Dec 02 12:30:00 &lt;stina5252>	did I get cut off/

Dec 02 12:30:09 &lt;paulproteus>	No, I think it's okay.

Dec 02 12:30:14 &lt;stina5252>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:30:14 &lt;cameronparkins>	I feel as though I operate the best in terms of thinking bout long term goals, big picture type decisions, as opposed to the core team, which will be focused most likely on the direct implementation of these ideas. I think that my value sand opinions will compliment the other canidates running in a unique way insofar that my focus tends to lend itself to the arts/cultural debate. &lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:30:25 &lt;stina5252>	should end with "goals of the organization"

Dec 02 12:30:30 &lt;cameronparkins>	sorry, typing is hard with one hand :)

Dec 02 12:30:32 &lt;paulproteus>	hmorsi, Are you done answering?

Dec 02 12:30:43 &lt;paulproteus>	If so, please write &lt;/answer>.

Dec 02 12:31:11 &lt;paulproteus>	New question: What connections do you have to the greater Free Culture community and other organizations you see as part of a movement, and do you think that connections are important for our board members to have?

Dec 02 12:31:30 &lt;hmorsi>	&lt;answer>

Dec 02 12:31:36 &lt;hmorsi>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:31:45 &lt;grahl>	paulproteus: time?

Dec 02 12:32:15 &lt;paulproteus>	Oh, sorry - 7 minutes starting now.

Dec 02 12:33:19 &lt;pyrak>	I'm one of those people that frequents the IRC channel. I'm often in here either helping out with webteam stuff or bouncing around ideas and thoughts related to the movement.

Dec 02 12:33:43 &lt;stina5252>	I am connected to the greater Free Culture community on my own as an artist/producer. In my experience, especially this year, as a film maker, I find many ways to bring the principles of free culture/open source production to my work, and I actively encourage my peers to do the same.

Dec 02 12:33:46 &lt;skyfaller>	pyrak: I'm not sure you quite understood the question... paulproteus, wanna clarify?

Dec 02 12:34:09 &lt;pyrak>	skyfaller, i think i did, but i think i need to make a stretch to give an affirmative answer :P

Dec 02 12:34:32 &lt;stina5252>	I think in my small way, I am setting precedent for the modes of cultural production prized by the free culture community in both my academic environment at Brown and in general

Dec 02 12:35:00 &lt;e-star>	I've worked with a large variety of organizations, including CC, iCommons, Science Commons, EFF, PLoS, SPARC, OLPC, WIkimedia, FSF, Free Press, Educause, Digital Freedom Coalition, Participatory Culture Foundation, and so on. I've also made efforts to reach out to a variety of artists, creators, musicians, coders, activists, educators, and beyond. I do think connections are a good thing for candidates to have, but I also think it's

Dec 02 12:35:12 &lt;pyrak>	if by connections you mean internships, then no, i haven't done any

Dec 02 12:35:23 &lt;paulproteus>	skyfaller, I think the gist of the question is being extracted well enough by other answers.

Dec 02 12:35:28 &lt;e-star>	pyrak: no, i think just some kind of interaction

Dec 02 12:35:29 &lt;mecredis>	I'm currently a Creative Commons Fellow working extensively with the organization in order to build ties to cultural institutions in New York. When I am done with my masters at NYU I intend on pursuing this full time. I have been working with them since 2005, and have relationships with virtually everyone involved in the organization. In addition to CC, I've worked with EFF, Public Knowledge (designed one of their new t-shirts), SPARC,

Dec 02 12:35:42 &lt;mecredis>	I frequently contribute to Wikipedia and license my photos for use in Wikimedia Commons. This summer I worked with Rhizome.org, a digital art non-profit to build in CC functionality to their site.

Dec 02 12:36:01 &lt;paulproteus>	For clarity, SPARC is a group formed from the top research libraries to promote Open Access.

Dec 02 12:36:03 &lt;fear_of_c>	I think that given the nature of the board's mission, it's not necessary that the board members specifically have connections so much as the organization in general

Dec 02 12:36:09 &lt;e-star>	did my answer get cut off?

Dec 02 12:36:13 &lt;skyfaller>	I've interned with EFF and PK, I've worked with SPARC/ATA and the FSF/DBD and many others on campaigns in the past, and after speaking at innumerable schools and attending/organizing endless conferences, I think I've met and/or worked with a good chunk of the free culture movement.

Dec 02 12:36:15 &lt;mecredis>	e-star: yes

Dec 02 12:36:21 &lt;hmorsi>	My involvement in some "technology-driven" grassroots development projects has put me in close connection to local technology and software interest groups, NGOs with relevant projects and other parties with direct interest in topics that can be generally classified as eing under the SFFC list of pursuits

Dec 02 12:36:37 &lt;mecredis>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:36:45 &lt;e-star>	can someone tell me where?

Dec 02 12:36:46 &lt;pyrak>	if frequenting the feeds put out by public knowledge, fsf, eff, copyfight, save the internet, creative commons, lessig, etc etc count as a "connection," then I have that

Dec 02 12:36:52 &lt;pyrak>	although it's one-way

Dec 02 12:36:57 &lt;stina5252>	Secondly, through the role I have played as the head of Brown Free Culture, I have been able to start relationships with entrepreneurs, artists, & professionals who are engaged in free culture practices. More recently, I have been involved with the Digital Freedom Campaign, EduCause, and the EFF

Dec 02 12:37:05 &lt;fear_of_c>	I have worked with the National September 11th Memorial, who have been taking the lead in adopting new, open technologies for the museum

Dec 02 12:37:23 &lt;skyfaller>	all of the current board members have a lot of history / connections just from working with SFC for years, so I'm not sure how useful it is to compare that with the newcomers

Dec 02 12:37:28 &lt;cameronparkins>	Currently, I work for Creative Commons, part-time, as a Cultural Program Assistant - mainly I blog for them, conduct interviews, track down important contacts, and help plan and execute events. I know mostly everyone currently at CC and during my time in SF this past summer I was able to meet a variety of different folks working in "free culture related" orgs.

Dec 02 12:37:38 &lt;grahl>	I have been involved mostly in the open source community and done translations and minor coding there, otherwise I have some contact to the infoshop / alternative press culture in the local community, which obviously interacts with FFC but which we hope to take further with initiatives to group local progressive organizations and broaden our audience through networking effects. Apart from a per-chapter basis this should also be persued

Dec 02 12:37:38 &lt;grahl>	with large organizations like the EFF, etc so if we are contacted about an issue that is not quite in our area we can defer easily and that should create some amount of reciprocity for SFC.

Dec 02 12:37:39 &lt;paulproteus>	(Do remember to answer the "is it important" part of the question.)

Dec 02 12:37:58 &lt;e-star>	paulproteus: can you please tell me where my answer got cut off?

Dec 02 12:38:06 &lt;fear_of_c>	I expect to have more connections in the future, as I count myself on the younger side of our candidates

Dec 02 12:38:12 &lt;paulproteus>	e-star, "but also I thin it's"&lt; cut off>

Dec 02 12:38:14 *	xipietotec has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

Dec 02 12:38:24 &lt;hmorsi>	My own involvement has been in the form of "connecting" these parties (interest groups and NGOs) to the communities in question through various channels

Dec 02 12:38:31 &lt;stina5252>	I think our individual relationships with members of the FC community and organizations with similar goals or priniciples are absolutely essential to the future success and growth of SFC

Dec 02 12:38:43 &lt;cameronparkins>	On a personal level, I license all my (amateur) photography under CC-licenses, and release all the music I create in the same manner.

Dec 02 12:39:00 &lt;hmorsi>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:39:08 &lt;grahl>	My contacts will likely change somewhat in the next year due to graduation and I hope to be in closer contact with other European organizations at that point, maybe the CCC.&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:39:14 &lt;skyfaller>	I think connections are important to have, but I don't think that the Board has to be the source of those connections. We can put together an advisory board later, or get Core Team members etc. to serve as liasons, etc... It's a little silly to expect Board members to have personal contacts with the entire FC movement.

Dec 02 12:39:15 &lt;mecredis>	ok let me add -- that I believe my connections and relationships to the "mature" organizations in the FC community has brought and will continue to bring a lot of resources to SFFC's table. Without strong ties to these organizations SFFC risks going it alone.

Dec 02 12:39:24 &lt;pyrak>	connections to other groups within the movement may be useful for board members until another team or a paid intern can take the role of coordination and relations.

Dec 02 12:39:25 &lt;fear_of_c>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:39:29 &lt;driscoll>	SFFC is at the crossroads of several of my interests. I am a HS teacher and co-founder of a non-profit dedicated to open education principles. I also have a relationship with various arts communities through curatatorial, art-making, and DJing activities. I am also a blogger, free software advocate, and regular contributor to Wikipedia.

Dec 02 12:39:53 &lt;cameronparkins>	I dont feel that judging a candidate simply off their connections is a sound concept, although I will admit it is helpful to have some to speak to directly in order to get things accomplished on larger level if we wish SFC to have a larger community impact.

Dec 02 12:39:54 &lt;stina5252>	The chance to share resources and to aid and benefit from projects of other organizations will be invaluable to the global organization

Dec 02 12:40:00 &lt;cameronparkins>	&lt;/answe>

Dec 02 12:40:06 &lt;cameronparkins>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:40:08 &lt;driscoll>	 While I think we have plenty of connections to that latter group, I am engaged in on-going efforts to strength bonds with communities of educators and artists.

Dec 02 12:40:08 &lt;pyrak>	Also, I think that these connections can be made during board members' time in office, and dont necessarily have to exist beforehand

Dec 02 12:40:10 &lt;driscoll>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:40:11 &lt;pyrak>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:40:14 &lt;stina5252>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:40:17 &lt;e-star>	I do think connections are a good thing for candidates to have, but I also think it's important to bring a variety of connections to the table, and would like a board with such diversity. That doesn't mean that all board members should have already worked with many organizations, but they certainly should be open to collaboration. :) &lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:40:32 &lt;paulproteus>	skyfaller, pyrak, I await your &lt;/answer>s.

Dec 02 12:40:36 &lt;skyfaller>	Relying on the Board for our connections with other organizations would make this uncomfortably like an old boy's club/network, I think. The board can delegate connections/outreach to other parts of SFC.&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:40:59 &lt;pyrak>	paulproteus, erm, u didnt get it?

Dec 02 12:41:04 &lt;paulproteus>	pyrak, Sorry then!

Dec 02 12:41:09 &lt;paulproteus>	Thanks, great answers. (-:

Dec 02 12:41:58 &lt;paulproteus>	New question, 8 minutes (or less, if possible):

Dec 02 12:41:58 &lt;paulproteus>	How did you get involved with Students for Free Culture, and do you think the way you got involved/were recruited is a good model for how to bring others in? Is there a diversity problem within Students for Free Culture, and how can recruitment target it if so?

Dec 02 12:42:28 &lt;pyrak>	It was a cold and dreary night

Dec 02 12:42:36 &lt;pyrak>	I was avoiding math homework

Dec 02 12:42:56 &lt;mecredis>	I got involved with SFFC when there was a slashdot article about the Swarthmore group getting started. I had been interested in starting a political group on campus about technology for quite a while -- My april's fools prank the earlier year was that the RIAA was coming to NYU and you could exchange your mp3s for immunity.

Dec 02 12:43:15 &lt;fear_of_c>	I was a prefrosh at Swarthmore College, during which I found out about Free Culture on the forums and immediately got myself signed up for the first, pre-year meeting

Dec 02 12:43:17 &lt;mecredis>	Once I realized that people got pretty angry about this, and the lawsuits, Ir ealized that a campus would be a great opportunity to start a political movement about copyright and technology issues.

Dec 02 12:43:18 &lt;skyfaller>	I started it ;-) I got involved with free culture in general first through free software + trusted computing/DRM, then I saw Lessig's OSCON presentation and that got me really fired up about the less technological aspects of free culture.

Dec 02 12:43:20 &lt;e-star>	I read about it on Lessig's blog, and as I had already been interested in these issues, thought it was the perfect way to get involved.

Dec 02 12:43:27 &lt;pyrak>	and I saw a speech by Cory Doctorow on hackaday.com about free culture issues

Dec 02 12:43:39 &lt;pyrak>	(it was the keynote from toorcon)

Dec 02 12:43:44 &lt;fear_of_c>	my recruitment was somewhat haphazard - I happened to find Free Culture because of where I was, and immediately found an attraction to it

Dec 02 12:43:47 &lt;mecredis>	so I started it my Senior year which is 04-05

Dec 02 12:43:52 &lt;pyrak>	I was fascinated, sent him an email asking how I could get involved, and he recommended SFC

Dec 02 12:43:59 *	christopher (n=christop@c-24-218-58-175.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #freeculture

Dec 02 12:44:02 &lt;grahl>	I saw my local chapter tabling, got on the email list and went to the first meeting that they announced. Been there since. Tabling is a great way to reach out to students who might not otherwise hear from you though it takes time and energy and motivating your members is a ke

Dec 02 12:44:05 &lt;e-star>	I do think we need to reach out beyond the usual subjects, so while reading about it on Lessig's blog is great, we also need to gain exposure elsewhere to recruit people that may not already be familiar w/ lots of the issues.

Dec 02 12:44:08 *	christopher is now known as christopherbdnk

Dec 02 12:44:10 &lt;stina5252>	Before I transferred to Brown I was at George Washington University where I took a course called "Uncommon Knowledge: Public Culture & Intellectual Property"

Dec 02 12:44:19 &lt;fear_of_c>	I think that moreso than a diversity problem, we have to avoid segmentation

Dec 02 12:44:33 &lt;pyrak>	The amazing thing about this speech, though, was that it made me "see the harm" in a permission culture because he used numerous, specific examples

Dec 02 12:44:47 &lt;fear_of_c>	between the software people, the art people, the legal/political experts

Dec 02 12:44:53 &lt;skyfaller>	I think that many of the early recruits were heavily tech-centered, but I think that demographic limitation is sorting itself out to some degree.

Dec 02 12:45:02 &lt;pyrak>	and, as I've already said, this is the appeal we need to make. people need to see the harm. it needs to be made relevant to their lives.

Dec 02 12:45:03 &lt;paulproteus>	grahl, Truncated at "members is a ke"

Dec 02 12:45:08 &lt;stina5252>	I read Lessig's book for this course, and I did a lot of writing about finding the balance between the the currently extensive copyright law and free culture

Dec 02 12:45:20 &lt;fear_of_c>	I also think that we need to be better at recruiting "from the masses"

Dec 02 12:45:25 *	parkerhiggins_ (n=parkerhi@216-165-29-29.DYNAPOOL.NYU.EDU) has joined #freeculture

Dec 02 12:45:27 &lt;paulproteus>	Howdy christopherbdnk!

Dec 02 12:45:37 &lt;pyrak>	and appeal through song and video is perfect for our generation. If I had simply been given a transcript of this speech, I would not have had the patience to read through it

Dec 02 12:45:37 &lt;mecredis>	&lt;/abnswer>

Dec 02 12:45:38 &lt;fear_of_c>	because, currently, I think that most of our members are people who have already heard of DRM, CC, and the problems with the system

Dec 02 12:45:58 &lt;fear_of_c>	or had already heard of these before joining

Dec 02 12:46:00 &lt;hmorsi>	My involvement came as a direct result of SFFC being an organization representing a cause of a personal interest to myself but I do not think this will be the way more members would be actively "recruited" due to the relative obscurity of what SFFC represents to the larger majority of college students

Dec 02 12:46:12 &lt;fear_of_c>	we need to demonstrate to people who don't yet know the jargon that something truly important is going on

Dec 02 12:46:26 &lt;pyrak>	Things like remixing contests, the down with drm video contest, those allowed our message to be expressed in a very approachable way

Dec 02 12:46:31 &lt;stina5252>	When I got back to brown I found a chance to revisit this interesting debate in a production seminar called "open source culture"

Dec 02 12:46:34 &lt;grahl>	key point in tabling successfully. Apart from that, announcing the organization wherever possible, like weekly neswletters etc is also helpful and even though they are evil, Facebook seems to be hard to avoid to reach out to a sizeable portion of students who won't read your email announcements.

Dec 02 12:46:43 &lt;skyfaller>	One demographic we may not be reaching is... people with lower incomes? Obviously focusing on universities means that we mostly reach people who can attend universities. I think reaching out to state universities and community colleges may help alleviate that problem, as well as expanding into high schools.

Dec 02 12:46:45 &lt;fear_of_c>	we need to recruit in all venues I think - music, software, writing, etc.

Dec 02 12:46:59 &lt;cameronparkins>	I got involved after I read an article about SFFC on BoingBoing and saw a group that was inline with my thoughts and concerns. It was hard for me to get a chapter started - to find people on campus that were ready and willing to do so, as well as finding the courage to jump in head first on something I had no handle on. I think as we move forward, it is really important for us to recognize the need for chapter start up ma

Dec 02 12:47:02 &lt;stina5252>	this class combined learning about the prinicples of free culture with open source artmaking practices

Dec 02 12:47:13 &lt;e-star>	I do think there is a lack of diversity to a certain extent. I think reaching out beyond the usual places can help this lack of diversity, in terms of interests, gender, race, nationality, etc. Of course this may be harder than it sounds, but it's definitely worth a try.

Dec 02 12:47:18 &lt;fear_of_c>	also, being a student group limits our demographic a bit, for obvious reasons

Dec 02 12:47:19 &lt;stina5252>	for my final project I started Brown Free Culture

Dec 02 12:47:36 &lt;pyrak>	As far as there being a diversity problem, in my experience we have more people coming at it from the software side, and less from the media side

Dec 02 12:47:41 &lt;fear_of_c>	but I think we can work within that and still recruit a large spread among students

Dec 02 12:48:23 &lt;pyrak>	This is probably a product of the big media's brainwashing appeals that confuse morality with their business model.

Dec 02 12:48:49 &lt;grahl>	Finally, events are key, bringing speakers is what has given our chapter a more diversified audience, since you attract other people like staff and faculty rather than only undergraduates, which are important as a base but in the end you want to also get noticed by those in charge. &lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:48:51 &lt;stina5252>	Because I was not "recruited" I am not in a position to comment on our current recruitment process, however, in the future, I feel that our success in recruiting a diverse population lies in the way we market ourselves

Dec 02 12:48:58 &lt;hmorsi>	The idea of founding a chapter at my univeristy came when I first learned of SFFC (after reading Free Culture) and seeing how the overwhelming majority is US-based schools desptie the gloal applicability of the topics of concern. So yes, I do see a problem with international representation in SFFC which can be worked on with more international chapter outreach efforts and more active recruitment activities

Dec 02 12:49:00 &lt;pyrak>	So we need more discussion about the nature of piracy and the new ways that the internet can be seen as a virtue instead of a vice

Dec 02 12:49:05 &lt;hmorsi>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:49:06 &lt;pyrak>	as far as the distribution og media.

Dec 02 12:49:13 &lt;pyrak>	of*

Dec 02 12:49:21 &lt;stina5252>	and the active attempt to target student populations who are under represented

Dec 02 12:49:25 &lt;paulproteus>	Great answers so far, please finish up in 2 min or so.

Dec 02 12:49:31 &lt;skyfaller>	SFC has had a good gender balance for a techy movement, and I think our continuing expansion into media etc. will continue to reduce our reliance on geeks ;-) I think we just need to keep doing what we're doing, and try to cover a wide range of territory with the issues we work on and the campaigns we do.&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:49:38 &lt;pyrak>	the importance of collaboration in creation of media needs to be stressed.

Dec 02 12:49:40 &lt;hmorsi>	*that was supposed to read "global applicability"

Dec 02 12:49:44 &lt;pyrak>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:49:58 &lt;fear_of_c>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:50:13 &lt;skyfaller>	cameronparkins: you got cut off at "start up m"

Dec 02 12:50:14 &lt;cameronparkins>	from a personal standpoint, I find the USC chapter has a diversity problem on two levels. Firstly, it is predominately male. Secondly, it is primarily technologists. I don't see these as intertwined necessarily., except from the standpoint that each chapter should be encouraged to make connections with other student groups on their respective campuses as to broaden their base

Dec 02 12:50:31 *	mllerustad (n=mllerust@scr-res145-dhcp217.scrippscollege.edu) has joined #freeculture

Dec 02 12:50:34 &lt;driscoll>	I don't recall ever being recruited. Actively working on free culture issues in the Boston area in the early 2000s, I was drawn to several events sponsored by the Berkman Center at Harvard Law School. I soon became friends with other people with similar interests and at some point, I was introduced to the student organization.

Dec 02 12:50:47 &lt;driscoll>	As a high school teacher in Cambridge, I was an at-large member. The openness of the Harvard/MIT group was essential to galvanizing a large, multigenerational group of people in the Boston area around free culture issues and events.

Dec 02 12:51:07 &lt;cameronparkins>	*it is really important for us to recognize the need for chapter start up materials, but equally as important to realize that each chapter will have different focci and issues they can attach themselves to

Dec 02 12:51:11 &lt;paulproteus>	Howdy mllerustad, you're just in time for the last "for all the candidates" question; when this particular debate is over, hopefully you and other candidates who missed questions can take some time to answer them.

Dec 02 12:51:11 &lt;cameronparkins>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:51:25 &lt;stina5252>	I think that the free culture movement and SFFC has something to offer everyone, but we will benefit from articulating what specifically might interest the people who are not already involved in the organization and perhaps don't even know that the movement exists

Dec 02 12:52:16 &lt;driscoll>	We now have multiple groups based at different institutions in the area, many with active at-large memberships.

Dec 02 12:52:21 &lt;paulproteus>	mllerustad, It'd be great if you could introduce yourself.

Dec 02 12:52:35 &lt;paulproteus>	driscoll, stina5252, e-star, your &lt;/answer>s please soon.

Dec 02 12:52:41 &lt;mllerustad>	I'm Karen Rustad, from Free Culture 5C in Claremont, CA.

Dec 02 12:52:43 &lt;stina5252>	one approach would be to do what big companies do which is host events on campuses and pursue students and let them know how much their involvement is desired

Dec 02 12:52:52 &lt;e-star>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:52:55 &lt;driscoll>	I am not aware of there being a conscious recruitment strategy in place but I am interested to learn about such strategies in other chapters.

Dec 02 12:52:59 &lt;driscoll>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:53:14 &lt;stina5252>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 12:53:27 &lt;paulproteus>	Thanks again for some great answers. Last big-group question from me:

Dec 02 12:53:40 &lt;paulproteus>	10 minutes again on this one: Are there "grown-up" organizations that take positions you disagree with? For example, you may think that EFF's reverse engineering of printer tracking dots was a waste of time, or that Creative Commons should drop the "NoDerivatives" license suite. How do you think this diversity of opinion contributes or detracts from Students for Free Culture?

Dec 02 12:54:40 &lt;paulproteus>	While you finish this, spectators: If you have a question you want to ask the whole group, please say "paulproteus: question".

Dec 02 12:55:01 &lt;paulproteus>	Otherwise, we'll move on to the round where the candidates get to ask questions of each other.

Dec 02 12:55:36 &lt;skyfaller>	I think that SFC needs to be a "big tent" organization that covers all students who are interested in / involved with free culture issues. I think that diversity of opinion is fine, so long as we are all committed to freedom/liberty and encouraging cultural participation.

Dec 02 12:56:04 &lt;paulproteus>	Hmm, I have a single 5m question I'm going to add after this one, actually.

Dec 02 12:56:22 &lt;mecredis>	For the most part I trust the "mature" organizations that we work with. I think EFF could do a better job picking copyright cases, but they're harder to win. I also think I occasionally step back when things get "too libertarian" for me -- I don't think using ownership to describe media makes sense any more and I don't think libertarianism has all the answers for the difficult quesions SFFC faces -- like net neutrality.

Dec 02 12:56:33 &lt;e-star>	First, I don't like the whole implication of the word "grown-up" here, but I guess that's another issue.

Dec 02 12:56:54 &lt;mecredis>	The digital freedom campaign, however, I took issue with initially as it seemed like they were trying to start something very similar to SFFC, and that annoyed me very much.

Dec 02 12:57:04 &lt;paulproteus>	Let me assure you I use the term light-heartedly; skyfaller has used that phrase in the past to refer to these groups.

Dec 02 12:57:06 &lt;skyfaller>	lol @ "mature"

Dec 02 12:57:09 &lt;fear_of_c>	I think that diversity of opinion is one of our greatest assets

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Dec 02 12:57:38 &lt;pyrak>	Of course, diversity of opinion does in some ways make our causes more difficult to recognize from the outside, but I think that it's important that we allow individual groups to develop their own standpoints under the larger free culture umbrella

Dec 02 12:57:50 &lt;mecredis>	After some clarification it seemed like they just wanted to help, which is great, and we've done some good events with them. But I was not a fan of how they first approached our grassroots organization. Some people have called them astro-turf, and I think they're going to keep working hard to avoid that criticism.

Dec 02 12:58:05 &lt;pyrak>	it stimulates dialogue

Dec 02 12:58:12 &lt;paulproteus>	Guys, if possible, please be contentious and disagree with someone. (-:

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Dec 02 12:58:29 &lt;mecredis>	I'm not going to say that we shouldn't have diversity of opinion, but as with the case of Digital Freedom, it wasn't about opinion -- it was about ignorance and miscommunication.

Dec 02 12:58:46 &lt;fear_of_c>	I have some disagreements with prominent figures in FOSS, mostly in that I think we should be more focused on practically convincing the public of the merits and usability of free and open source software, and put less emphasis on whether there is a proprietary flash player or some other small installation on a mostly free system

Dec 02 12:59:05 &lt;pyrak>	I understand the argument that the no derivs license suite should be abolished (creative commons) but I think that the important thing is that artists are given choice

Dec 02 12:59:09 &lt;skyfaller>	I don't think it's useful to list all of the little things that I disagree with CC, FSF etc. on... if we don't like the CC-no-derivs license, we can refuse to use it ourselves, without commiting the organization to actively opposing the license and getting into some sort of fight with CC over it. It's more interesting / important to discuss the fundamental disagreements that we have with friendly organizations. I don't really have any.

Dec 02 12:59:12 &lt;fear_of_c>	but I also think it's important to push for truly free software, and not just non-Microsoft

Dec 02 12:59:15 &lt;hmorsi>	I think that we need to consider things relevant to the issues at hand on a case-by-case basis largely becuase there are definately no clear-cut lines of what "should" and "shouldn't be" done. "Localization" of SFFC's activities dictates adaptation and flexibilty to variables of laws, culture and opinion. I believe SFFC needs this flexibilty to "evolve" into a more international organization

Dec 02 12:59:29 &lt;pyrak>	We can encourage them one way or the other, but when we push to hard, people become reactionary and run awau

Dec 02 12:59:32 &lt;pyrak>	away*

Dec 02 12:59:46 &lt;fear_of_c>	I think that the CC no-derivs license is no worse than the standard copyright system, and does not hurt anything

Dec 02 13:00:07 &lt;hmorsi>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:00:09 &lt;pyrak>	ultimately it has to be the choice of the creators to choose hos their media will be distributed and to what degree it is read/write

Dec 02 13:00:11 &lt;e-star>	Yes, there are positions that these organizations take or tactics that they use that I sometimes do not agree with, but I don't expect that we're all going to necessarily be on the same page, and I think it's important to have a diversity of opinions at least to some degree with a common goal of free culture in mind. Now obviously, that wouldn't include promoting inherently anti-FC ideals (strengthening copyright, promoting DRM, et

Dec 02 13:00:13 &lt;mecredis>	for the record I think the NoDerivs license is very useful and mimics the FSF's intentions of putting "invariant" section possibilites in to the FDL. NoDerivs are important for journalists who don't want their subject's words twisted into something. There are dozens of other examples, this is just one. I think its petty and shortsighted to disagree with NoDerivs.

Dec 02 13:00:14 &lt;stina5252>	I just lost everything I typed - -one sec

Dec 02 13:00:21 &lt;skyfaller>	However, if for example a candidate was very concerned about CC's no-derivs licenses b/c they're not free as in freedom, and wanted to campaign against those CC licenses, then we should talk about that.

Dec 02 13:00:58 &lt;mllerustad>	I guess I'd have to say not really. I can't think of anything that our partners have done that has *hurt* the cause of free culture. Sometimes they may not go as far as some of us would like (the whole controversy over NoDeriv, for example) but I wouldn't say I disagree with it because it's at least in the right direction. If a more maximal license is what introduces an artist to the idea of CC, that's a start. We can wor

Dec 02 13:00:58 &lt;mllerustad>	k on going even further on the "free culture spectrum" subsequently. Likewise, when people in the free culture world (say, the FSF) take more radical stances than some of us would prefer, I don't mind that either. There is some concern over alienating people, but I do think they do good work and even if they don't convince everyone of their position, it's moving the middle ground in the right direction.

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Dec 02 13:01:21 &lt;mllerustad>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:01:25 &lt;mecredis>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:01:49 &lt;skyfaller>	minor disagreements happen all the time, and we can talk them through in a friendly fashion between friends. &lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:01:53 *	brendanballou (n=brendanb@bb359.clare.cam.ac.uk) has joined #freeculture

Dec 02 13:02:02 &lt;cameronparkins>	Tis is a difficult question - I dont specifically disagree with the "grown-up" organizations very often, and tend to find that they are making sound choices in their decisions. I do see a fault in the FC movement for is inwards looking perspective though - at times I feel as though we, and the bigger orgs (EFF, CC, PK, etc.) tend to ignore a middle grouf of people who dont wish to be "as open" as we might, but are also op

Dec 02 13:02:12 &lt;skyfaller>	hey brendanballou ! Mis-count your time zones? ;-)

Dec 02 13:02:21 &lt;brendanballou>	Unfortunately, yes

Dec 02 13:02:24 &lt;cameronparkins>	I think that there is a unique opportunity for a group like SFFC to bridge this gap, as on most college campuses there is a bevy of ideas and opinions. We can reach out and build bridges that these larger orgs can not.

Dec 02 13:02:27 &lt;fear_of_c>	I think we have to answer some major ideological questions sometimes, and I think it's better that we talk them through internally than divide up the wider free culture community

Dec 02 13:02:27 &lt;mecredis>	oh, I would also object to calling them "grown up organizations"

Dec 02 13:02:30 &lt;skyfaller>	lollerskates

Dec 02 13:02:31 &lt;cameronparkins>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:02:31 &lt;paulproteus>	Hi brendanballou, you've nearly missed the whole debate, but there'll be a few questions you can participate in. Sorry about the time zone muddle.

Dec 02 13:02:33 &lt;grahl>	I can't think of a specific case were I would say that any other organization's actions are detrimental to "the cause". If there really is a pressing issue that they are ignoring due to their different focus, well, maybe we should just do it, rather than rely on them. SFC is not under any obligation to promote everything these other organizations do or say and we should pick and choose where we see that it brings the biggest benefit.

Dec 02 13:02:47 &lt;pyrak>	I sometimes disagree on small things-- that one guy from public knowledge getting an iphone, but it just serves to remind us that we are a diverse group. it's important not to forget that we are chapter-based and decentralized and encourage alternative viewpoints.

Dec 02 13:02:48 &lt;mecredis>	I meant "mature" in the sense that their organization structure was so, not that their staff or priorities were

Dec 02 13:02:57 &lt;brendanballou>	yeah, I really apologize - and for missing the last one too - 4 am was a little early for me

Dec 02 13:02:58 &lt;skyfaller>	mecredis: or mature in their content? ;-)

Dec 02 13:03:06 &lt;paulproteus>	mecredis, Hey, I resemble that remark! (-;

Dec 02 13:03:20 &lt;grahl>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:03:25 &lt;mecredis>	yeah, I mean mature in that they are funded, are 501c3s, etc.

Dec 02 13:03:43 &lt;driscoll>	I have been disappointed by the confusing number of CC licenses in the past. For example, the "Developing Nations" license and the "Non-Commercial" clause seemed to weaken the usefulness of the entire collection. Of course, these issues are known-knowns at this point

Dec 02 13:04:01 &lt;e-star>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:04:15 &lt;skyfaller>	I must say that I'm happy that CC seems to have reduced their license proliferation :)

Dec 02 13:04:30 &lt;fear_of_c>	I like the "non-commercial" clause, as it seems like the best, reasonable middle ground between keeping something protected and allowing others to create derivatives

Dec 02 13:04:32 &lt;paulproteus>	skyfaller, Off-topic; happiness was not part of the question!

Dec 02 13:04:46 &lt;paulproteus>	Thanks for &lt;/answer>ing those who you have; please finish up soon those who have not. Also, any audience members have any questions?

Dec 02 13:04:52 *	parkerhiggins (n=parkerhi@216-165-29-29.DYNAPOOL.NYU.EDU) has joined #freeculture

Dec 02 13:04:53 &lt;fear_of_c>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:05:02 &lt;driscoll>	I am also turned off by the misapplication of rhetoric. Art-making audiences shouldn't be told that they are making an ethical misstep for using Final Cut Pro. They may be encouraged to consider free tools but SFFC should take a big-picture stance and support them by protecting their cultural practices.

Dec 02 13:05:04 &lt;driscoll>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:05:06 &lt;pyrak>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:06:15 *	lucychili (n=lucychil@ppp121-45-128-193.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net) has joined #freeculture

Dec 02 13:06:25 &lt;paulproteus>	Waiting on stina5252 and skyfaller right now. Also hi lucychili.

Dec 02 13:06:32 &lt;stina5252>	I think that diversity of opinion contributes greatly to the success and reputation of the Free Culture community/movement as it makes clear the world of complexity inherent in the issues central to our organization. I would object to any of us viewing ourselves as not grown-up int he face of these organizations for fear that we feel inhibited in working actively to find agreement with them...

Dec 02 13:06:34 &lt;stina5252>	...in the event that we do find ourselves at odds with their decisions...it is really important for SFFC to see the global org as a contender and initiator in that regard, a further testament to the need for diverse opinions in that we too can produce them when we aren't on board with our peers and have an impact

Dec 02 13:06:42 &lt;stina5252>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:06:44 &lt;skyfaller>	paulproteus: I have a question for everyone... are we taking questions from candidates yet?

Dec 02 13:06:48 &lt;paulproteus>	skyfaller, Not quite yet.

Dec 02 13:06:57 &lt;lucychili>	hi

Dec 02 13:07:00 &lt;skyfaller_ppc>	how about questions from sock puppets?

Dec 02 13:07:06 &lt;paulproteus>	skyfaller, Did you &lt;/answer>?

Dec 02 13:07:12 &lt;skyfaller>	paulproteus: yes

Dec 02 13:07:18 &lt;paulproteus>	Oops, then great, that's a wrap!

Dec 02 13:07:27 &lt;skyfaller>	my CC licenses comment was just an aside

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Dec 02 13:08:04 &lt;paulproteus>	Okay, five minutes, one last question: Do you feel that Students for Free Culture should be willing to trade long-term goals in exchange for short-term wins? Can you give an example of a compromise you think is reasonable, as well as a compromise you think is unreasonable? You might want to draw on a comparison with the Free Software movement or Open Source, or with anything else at all really.

Dec 02 13:08:11 &lt;paulproteus>	(Then the candidates can grill each other.)

Dec 02 13:08:45 &lt;e-star>	I think it really depends upon the situation, and such scenarios should be examined on a case-by-case basis.

Dec 02 13:09:15 &lt;pyrak>	hrm

Dec 02 13:09:30 &lt;fear_of_c>	I don't think it really makes sense, the way I interpret the question

Dec 02 13:09:42 &lt;paulproteus>	Er, oops?

Dec 02 13:09:56 &lt;stina5252>	This is a tough question seeing as we just spent a great deal of time re-articulating those long term goals in our new bylaws I am reluctant to say that it would be appropriate to waver on any of them

Dec 02 13:10:00 &lt;mecredis>	I think the individuals of SFFC should focus on developing their chapters and local actions. I can't say whether or not this is a "long term" or "short term" goal. I don't think we're comporising and that's not why people are interested in being part of this movement.

Dec 02 13:10:05 &lt;pyrak>	I suppose that sometimes it's worthwhile to say something like, "look, we'd really like to be at z, but not everyone is in the same boat with use there. if we can compromise and just go to x, then we'll be closer to z, and we'll have mroe backing"

Dec 02 13:10:16 &lt;skyfaller>	I think SFC should take the long view, if we're talking about SFC vs. the outside world / other organizations. Unless it's serious enough that it threatens the very existence of the organization, we should generally stick to our principles if our members are in general agreement about what those principles should be.

Dec 02 13:10:26 &lt;fear_of_c>	it is possible that we will sacrifice something we may consider "long term" for a quick victory, but I would only do so if I thought that the "short term win" had some lasting value more than what was being sacrificed

Dec 02 13:10:29 &lt;paulproteus>	I'll rephrase slightly: We live in a complicated world, and sometimes we are offered compromises that get us part of the way to where want to go, but not all the way there. Can you name one compromise like this you think would be reasonable to make, and one that isn't?

Dec 02 13:10:36 &lt;pyrak>	"then hopefully later people will be able to see z better from the view at x, and they'll agree that we need to keep moving until we get to z"

Dec 02 13:11:17 &lt;brendanballou>	just to understand the question better, is there a situation in the FC organization's history where this has actually happened?

Dec 02 13:11:33 &lt;pyrak>	I suppose the noderivs licenses are a perfect example of such a compromise

Dec 02 13:11:37 &lt;e-star>	yeah, i'm still a bit unclear even after the rephrasing

Dec 02 13:11:43 &lt;skyfaller>	internal compromise is a stickier question, and as I said above I think that SFC needs to be a big tent organization and allow a wide diversity of opinions. I think it would be horrid if students felt a need to fork SFC, let's not let it reach that point.

Dec 02 13:11:44 &lt;cameronparkins>	For the most part, I think that long term goals and principles are a better guiding force than short term benifits. This aside, everything coms down to cost-benifit analysis - if we take this in the short term, is it going to hurt us more in the long term than it is worth? Or will we be able overcome the long term implications?

Dec 02 13:11:56 &lt;fear_of_c>	for example, in terms of FOSS, I believe that we cannot expect to switch people to fully-free (no proprietary drivers, no Sun Java, etc.) software immediately; I would push for switching people to usable, mostly-free alternatives, such as Ubuntu, which would help us build momentum to overcome those last bits; still, I see this choice of action as beneficial in the long term

Dec 02 13:12:15 &lt;pyrak>	we're saying "we really would like you to make your work read/write, but if the writing is still making you uncomfortable, start out just making it 'read,' and we'll go from there

Dec 02 13:12:16 &lt;stina5252>	So I guess I would agree with e-star that its very much a case-by-case issue - and having the bylaws will help us to solve issues that could force us to make compromises in a manner that is at the very least informed by the long term plan of SFFC, which I think should remain at the heart of how this organization should operate/ make decisions

Dec 02 13:12:46 &lt;hmorsi>	Like my answer to the previous question: I think it is really a question on judging each case on its own merit. In the more general sense, SFFC as an organization should focus on and give priority to the long-term vs. the short-term gain (with respect to decision making and goals, that is). Chapters on the other hand, need to first look at their local environment, and by this I mean on or off-campus, and work based on that..

Dec 02 13:12:50 &lt;driscoll>	I cannot think of a case in which the Board of SFFC would be challenged to make a decision that would benefit chapters in the short-term but threaten our long-term goals.

Dec 02 13:12:52 &lt;paulproteus>	I suppose the question would have been better if I had named compromises I think you all would disagree on, but oh well, no time for that now. (-:

Dec 02 13:12:59 &lt;skyfaller>	but long-term goals vs. short term wins, in terms of fighting bad legislation etc... I think the history of the EFF suggests that compromising for short term gains doesn't pay off, either in increased freedom/success or increased membership.&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:13:07 &lt;cameronparkins>	We all have different views of what these long term goals are though - for one canidate it could be everyone CC-licensing their photos on Flicr with BY-SA, for another, it could be just making sure people know that they have that option.

Dec 02 13:13:19 &lt;cameronparkins>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:13:43 &lt;grahl>	The qestion is what are long-term goals, if it is a large campaign to enact specific legislation that might takes years to get done it might make more sense to focus on establishing more chapters and informing more people, now. If we are talking about the Final Cut Pro example from above we should of course first convince people to e.g. CC license their work before switching them to a Linux platform without good software at hand, in such

Dec 02 13:13:44 &lt;grahl>	an example a good middle-ground might be to do a usability workshop to help certain software along so that it becomes usable faster.

Dec 02 13:14:05 &lt;fear_of_c>	on the other hand, I still do not recommend switching people from Windows XP to Mac OS, because I think that we are driving people from one proprietary system to a somewhat less proprietary system, and chances are they will still be using MS Office etc.; basically, I want to focus on the changes I see as significant and let small things like Java and Flash wait until later

Dec 02 13:14:35 &lt;mecredis>	yeah, if what you're asking is if we should forcibly convince eveyone associated with us to only use FOSS and only consume FC, then while i don't think its an impossible long term goal, I also don't think its a realistic short term one.

Dec 02 13:14:57 &lt;mecredis>	let's not get into a OS X v. Win proprietary argument

Dec 02 13:14:57 &lt;grahl>	We can lead by example but there will always be some things left to do and improving things step by step is not compromising our goals.

Dec 02 13:15:03 &lt;skyfaller>	oh, hm, can I add more to my answer after I've said &lt;/answer>, paulproteus ?

Dec 02 13:15:05 &lt;mllerustad>	One the one hand, I think that our long-term goals and values are important, and we should keep hold of them. On the other hand, though, I think constant compromise is already a reality, being that we are as skyfaller says a big tent organization. What might be right in line with one chapter's goals might be a huge compromise of another chapter's values, but it is our job to support all of their efforts to the best we can.

Dec 02 13:15:08 &lt;grahl>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:15:11 &lt;paulproteus>	skyfaller, SUre, while others are talking, but say &lt;answer> then.

Dec 02 13:15:14 &lt;driscoll>	"Long-term goals" as I have used it, refers abstractly to the growth of a more free global culture and, concretely, to the facilitation of work by local chapters.

Dec 02 13:15:23 &lt;pyrak>	As far as our credibility as a group, we need to put ourselves in a position to be seen as not just a crazy, far-left radical piracy crazytime club. with this in mind, it's important for SFC to be able to compromise by taking small steps toward our goals while retaining backing from the outside, instead of taking giant leaps and leaving everyone behind, yelling at us. and throwing tomatoes.

Dec 02 13:15:25 &lt;paulproteus>	mecredis, fear_of_c, I look forward to you two asking questions of each other in the next round.

Dec 02 13:15:27 &lt;stina5252>	I think this is also a good follow up to the last question where I said I think difference in opinion and approach is essential - there is never, especially in our case, going to be one right answer, and since the number of answers will change according to the situation, my goal would be to chose something that is not-wrong according to our long term goals and basic priniciples

Dec 02 13:15:31 &lt;pyrak>	did i get cut off?

Dec 02 13:15:33 &lt;brendanballou>	yeah, I agree with stina and e-star: this depends entirely on the specific situation. but with an organization as open as SFC, I really don't think such problems are likely

Dec 02 13:15:53 &lt;mecredis>	paulproteus: oops, mis read fear_of_c 's point -- I agree

Dec 02 13:16:12 &lt;mecredis>	switching from win to os x makes no difference in terms of helping foss / fc

Dec 02 13:16:16 &lt;mllerustad>	I guess then, I think we should be always trying to advance our principles--whether in small compromise increments or in large ones. &lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:16:22 &lt;fear_of_c>	mecredis: is there something I should clarify for the audience?

Dec 02 13:16:22 &lt;hmorsi>	Promoting involvement and activism in issues of balanced intellectual property rights, open access to knowledge and participatory culture requires both commitment to a solid set of principles but also flexibility at the "operational" -or chapter- level

Dec 02 13:16:28 &lt;mecredis>	no, just misread

Dec 02 13:16:55 &lt;driscoll>	Ultimately, we should accept contradiction and tension individually as well as institutionally and move forward to the best of our ability.

Dec 02 13:16:56 &lt;skyfaller>	I think it's important for SFC to serve as an example to the outside world, so insofar as we care about free software, open licenses, web standards etc., SFC should try to be ideologically pure when possible in its own operations. That doesn't mean it has to be rabidly evangelizing the outside world, however, frequently that's just not classy.&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:16:58 &lt;driscoll>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:17:00 &lt;stina5252>	totally vague I realize so I should just clarify: I am all about flexibility but believe that it should work within a framework that is agreed upon by all

Dec 02 13:17:06 &lt;stina5252>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:17:12 &lt;pyrak>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:17:20 &lt;skyfaller>	that was my 2nd &lt;/answer>, for the record :)

Dec 02 13:17:27 &lt;mecredis>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:17:39 &lt;hmorsi>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:17:42 &lt;fear_of_c>	as another example, I don't think that we can reasonably expect to fix the music industry in one shot; I'm willing to cut companies like Apple/EMI slack for being the leaders in the industry for DRM-free music, even though I still see them as light years off ideologically from our cause

Dec 02 13:18:07 &lt;brendanballou>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:18:11 &lt;pyrak>	fear_of_c, good example

Dec 02 13:18:20 &lt;fear_of_c>	of course, there are far, far better alternatives I would give full support to, such as Antenna Alliance

Dec 02 13:18:35 &lt;fear_of_c>	but those who have come part of the way still deserve some credit

Dec 02 13:18:36 &lt;paulproteus>	Your &lt;answer>s soon, please.

Dec 02 13:18:37 &lt;fear_of_c>	&lt;/answer?

Dec 02 13:19:05 &lt;e-star>	If our long term goal is fostering a free culture, then it does not make sense to compromise that by doing things that are inherently anti-FC (for example, promoting DRM). But if it's a question of promoting Firefox for Windows and OSX as well as Linux, then I say that it's worth it to take that middle ground to promote the use of Firefox, even if it's still free software on a non-free OS. In that sense, I agree with mecredis's com

Dec 02 13:19:13 &lt;paulproteus>	"I agree with mecredis's com"

Dec 02 13:19:15 &lt;paulproteus>	is how that ends.

Dec 02 13:19:25 &lt;e-star>	In that sense, I agree with mecredis's comments before about the scenario of only consuming freely licensed content or free software. &lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:20:10 &lt;paulproteus>	mecredis, mllerustad, grahl, I think I'm missing your &lt;/answer>s.

Dec 02 13:20:19 &lt;mecredis>	mecredis: &lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:20:25 *	xipietotec (n=jackfros@70.6.71.149) has joined #freeculture

Dec 02 13:20:31 &lt;paulproteus>	(Thanks, sorry if I miss them due to my own error.)

Dec 02 13:21:08 &lt;paulproteus>	As I wait for grahl + mllerustad, e-star is going to have to leave momentarily, so I want to ask if anyone has a one-on-one question for her, and if she has time to answer one.

Dec 02 13:21:13 &lt;grahl>	paulproteus: i did &lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:21:18 &lt;paulproteus>	grahl, Then I can't read, sorry.

Dec 02 13:21:20 *	paulproteus blames jet lag

Dec 02 13:21:20 &lt;mecredis>	yeah, I only have so much tiem as well

Dec 02 13:21:33 &lt;e-star>	paulproteus: i can stay for another 10, but after that i really have to go

Dec 02 13:21:39 *	mecredis too

Dec 02 13:21:44 *	pyrak had to go pick up his brother soonish

Dec 02 13:21:46 &lt;mllerustad>	paulproteus: Oh, I &lt;/answer>ed. :)

Dec 02 13:21:46 &lt;paulproteus>	Oh, look, mllerustad &lt;/answer>ed too.

Dec 02 13:21:48 &lt;cameronparkins>	paulproteus: i have to leave imminetley as well, so i would ask for the same one-on-one q style

Dec 02 13:21:49 &lt;pyrak>	has*

Dec 02 13:21:58 &lt;paulproteus>	Okay, well, then we'll move into Round 2:

Dec 02 13:22:12 &lt;paulproteus>	If any candidate has a question for any other single candidate, please say "paulproteus: question".

Dec 02 13:22:29 &lt;e-star>	paulproteus: question

Dec 02 13:22:32 &lt;paulproteus>	e-star, Fire away.

Dec 02 13:22:48 &lt;paulproteus>	We can have multiple simultaneous questions, so others feel free to ping me.

Dec 02 13:23:17 &lt;skyfaller>	my question is general, so I'll wait

Dec 02 13:23:45 &lt;paulproteus>	skyfaller, I guess after all the one-on-one questions we'll take yours.

Dec 02 13:23:56 &lt;e-star>	skyfaller: Before, in one of your answers, you spoke of an "old boys club" potentially on the board vis-a-vis connections. Do you not think it's a good idea for the board members to have good connections? I realize that you may be saying that we shouldn't be solely reliant on those connections, and if so, then I agree. But I think your statement warrants further clarification. &lt;/question>

Dec 02 13:24:43 &lt;paulproteus>	Plus now skyfaller's got his hands full. No one else has any one-on-one questions for other candidates?

Dec 02 13:26:21 &lt;skyfaller>	e-star: I meant to say that connections should not be a requirement for board members, or necessarily even a factor. I think it's great if board members have connections, but I don't think a newcomer who doesn't have connections outside their chapter should necessarily be voted down. I think getting new blood onto the board may be more useful than having connections, if that's all that we have to choose between (obviously it's more complica

Dec 02 13:26:21 &lt;skyfaller>	ted than that).

Dec 02 13:26:46 &lt;paulproteus>	&lt;/answer> when you're ready.

Dec 02 13:27:24 &lt;skyfaller>	As I said, there are many ways to get connections into SFC, such as an advisory board or core team members, so there's no need to rely on the board for our connections with other orgs.&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:27:32 &lt;paulproteus>	Seeing as there are no more one-on-one questions, skyfaller, would you ask your general question?

Dec 02 13:28:15 &lt;paulproteus>	If there are no more questions after that, then we can all go home (to the extent that IRC is not our home!).

Dec 02 13:29:45 &lt;skyfaller>	OK, question for everyone: Why aren't more/any of your chapter members at these debates? More generally, how can we get chapters working together on projects more, and more chapter members involved on the global level? (Obviously we don't want to detract from local activities, but some global projects require global volunteers, esp. until we get a paid coordinator.)&lt;/question>

Dec 02 13:30:07 &lt;paulproteus>	Thanks; 10 minutes, all, and then that's a wrap unless someone tells me a new question.

Dec 02 13:30:18 &lt;mecredis>	skyfaller: parkerhiggins is here.

Dec 02 13:30:34 &lt;skyfaller>	mecredis: good job :) So, why only one?

Dec 02 13:30:39 &lt;parkerhiggins>	yes, i am

Dec 02 13:30:44 &lt;stina5252>	I can answer that pretty quickly: Brown Free Culture is still very new, and while the people involved so far are very interested in the issues, they do not yet have a vested interest in the global organization

Dec 02 13:31:00 &lt;pyrak>	i had to run away from a rehearsal to get here, most of my active chapter members are still there

Dec 02 13:31:21 &lt;mecredis>	skyfaller: why not two dozen? because they have finals to worry about.

Dec 02 13:31:30 &lt;pyrak>	adi came to the last one

Dec 02 13:31:49 &lt;skyfaller>	mecredis: good point :) how about the general question?

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Dec 02 13:32:17 &lt;grahl>	Well, it is finals...(and I have two people, ha!) but it is important that chapters sometimes are too detached from the national organization execpt for an officer or two, it was true for me, too, until I was vice-president.

Dec 02 13:32:18 &lt;pyrak>	(other people had work, as i recall)

Dec 02 13:32:25 &lt;pyrak>	anyway, as far as getting people involved nationally in general

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Dec 02 13:32:27 &lt;e-star>	Most of my chapter members are swamped with end-of-the-semester schoolwork right now. They are interested in the election, though, and we'll look at the minutes/wiki at our next meeting. I had one member who was here but then seemed to have left..heh.

Dec 02 13:32:30 &lt;stina5252>	I think many people who come to the movement do not necessarily want to spend their time working for an organization and are more devoted to actual task execution - I feel this is fine, and its these types of people the global org should reach out to but not necessarily expect the same sort of involvement in return&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:32:46 &lt;e-star>	skyfaller: can you please answer the second half of your own q?

Dec 02 13:32:51 &lt;skyfaller>	I guess to clarify, the reason I'm asking the specific question is because I am a bit concerned that the chapters may not be involved enough with these board elections, and I want these elections to be democratic / reflect the will of the chapters.

Dec 02 13:32:54 &lt;fear_of_c>	the swarthmore chapter has been hit hard recently in the past years, first by the departure of our leader last year, then by the the disappearance of our treasurer, leaving us with no budget, and the departure of our leader from earlier this year and medical leave of one of our more prominent members; because of this, we are now in a transitional phase of gathering new members, many of whom are not yet added to the national lists or f

Dec 02 13:33:04 &lt;skyfaller>	e-star: sure :)

Dec 02 13:33:04 &lt;skyfaller>	erm

Dec 02 13:33:18 &lt;cameronparkins>	To be frank, the USC SFFC chapter has never had much national involvement beyond my correspondence with everyone. I think this is in large part due to its placement on the west coast (although ou proximity to the 5C chapter has yet to be tapped into). As such, I don't know if their minds are focused on such a debate, n a Sunday morning, the week before finals.

Dec 02 13:33:18 &lt;skyfaller>	fear_of_c: you got cut off at "lists or"

Dec 02 13:33:24 &lt;paulproteus>	fear_of_c, Truncated @ "the national lists or f"

Dec 02 13:33:25 &lt;pyrak>	I think that, as was discussed last time, we need something to complement the chapters and discuss mailing lists, and blog aggregators, to let chapters know what other chapters are doing

Dec 02 13:33:31 &lt;mecredis>	my feeling is that chaptesr have a hard enough time organizing and coordinating essential volunteer students on campus. when you're asking them to come in and sit on IRC for two hours to be part of a "national" movement, it doesn't quite stick.

Dec 02 13:33:37 &lt;mecredis>	e.g. no free pizza.

Dec 02 13:33:49 *	paulproteus could use some free pizza too

Dec 02 13:33:51 &lt;mllerustad>	As for this debate in particular--most of them are probably still sleeping. In general--Adrian has done some work with the webteam, which I'm pretty happy about. For the most part, though, I think our members are too busy with schoolwork, grad school apps, and the like. They've got their "free culture time" taken up by local stuff, so there's little time for national work. If we were a bigger chapter, and had spare manpow

Dec 02 13:33:51 &lt;mllerustad>	er on the local level, I imagine it'd be different.

Dec 02 13:33:56 &lt;mecredis>	my chapter is paying attention to the board elections but they feel it is somethign that remotely effects them

Dec 02 13:34:02 &lt;stina5252>	mecredis: i agree

Dec 02 13:34:18 &lt;fear_of_c>	basically, I was saying that many of our newer members are not yet involved at the national level, and that many of our older members who would be more involved have departed due to various circumstances

Dec 02 13:34:34 &lt;e-star>	I agree that it's important to get chapters collaborating on projects when appropriate, and I think the real way to do that is to foster a community of leaders (i.e. a new core team), and personal connections (you're more likely to be willing to work with someone if you've had some interpersonal communication with them.

Dec 02 13:34:41 &lt;cameronparkins>	i think that we can get more chapters working together on a wider level, but I feel as though campus specific issues are already time consuming enough to not encourage your average member to wish to extend beyond that initial commitent

Dec 02 13:34:43 &lt;grahl>	And to be honest I'd rather see my fellow members get the budget and calendar and all the little things that need to happen done, to make the chapter work, than having them focus on these issues.&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:34:49 &lt;fear_of_c>	so currently, Ben and I are attempting to rebuild our chapter

Dec 02 13:34:56 &lt;driscoll>	I am still new to MIT, the chapter is new to the school, and I am just getting to know the other folks involved. I suspect some are not subbed to the listserv and perhaps did not know about the debate but I can't say with certainty why they are not here.

Dec 02 13:34:57 &lt;hmorsi>	I can relate to what stina5252 stated: AUC Free Culture is also new, although we started last May, activity started to pick up only a couple months ago. Again, AUC free Culture is currently, to my extent of knowledge, the only active chapter based outside the US, so the trick was "localizing" the interest in SFFC

Dec 02 13:34:58 &lt;fear_of_c>	Ben being contra

Dec 02 13:35:15 &lt;pyrak>	also there should be a mechanism for chapters that have events to do some kind of write-up and make the resources that they used available to other chapters so that they dont have to re-invent the wheel

Dec 02 13:35:20 &lt;stina5252>	good point hmorsi

Dec 02 13:35:30 &lt;stina5252>	local is key when you are starting up a chapter

Dec 02 13:35:42 &lt;e-star>	I also think it's important not to overwhelm all chapter members with a lot of national org-related commitments as well. That's why it might make sense to go over minutes at a meeting, and discuss the candidates there.

Dec 02 13:35:43 &lt;skyfaller>	to answer my own question, I think that if the national organization had more resources to take care of its own work, rather than relying on volunteers from the chapters, then it would make global work more attractive to local chapters. I think in the past local chapters haven't seen enough payoff from working on the global organization, and that's why we need a paid coordinator to work as a "force multiplier" on the global level.

Dec 02 13:35:44 &lt;cameronparkins>	stina5252: couldnt agree more

Dec 02 13:35:46 &lt;mllerustad>	I mean, I belong to a chapter, and I help out at the national level. Almost all of us do. I think at the size of most of the chapters right now, you really can only expect one or two people to have the spare time to do national stuff instead of or in addition to local stuff.

Dec 02 13:35:52 &lt;fear_of_c>	so even though we aren't a new chapter, we have the same structure and membership as one

Dec 02 13:35:58 &lt;e-star>	hmorsi: no, peru is also very active, although not as in touch w/ the nat'l org

Dec 02 13:36:06 &lt;e-star>	hmorsi: and a german chapter just started and is active

Dec 02 13:36:20 &lt;driscoll>	With regard to participation, the MIT chapter is cranking on some local projects right now. I think any successful global effort must be built on interconnected local activities.

Dec 02 13:36:21 &lt;grahl>	paulproteus: see pyrak's comments for wiki-magic we still need ;-)

Dec 02 13:36:27 &lt;driscoll>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:36:29 &lt;hmorsi>	Oh, thanks for the heads-up e-star

Dec 02 13:36:29 &lt;skyfaller>	I think that if local chapters got a lot more out of the global organization than they put in, then working with the global org would be more attractive.

Dec 02 13:36:29 &lt;paulproteus>	grahl, Huh? /me scrolls

Dec 02 13:36:46 &lt;mllerustad>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:36:52 &lt;grahl>	the mechanism he talks about, nevermind, something for a later date

Dec 02 13:36:52 &lt;paulproteus>	grahl, Ah, yes indeed. (-:

Dec 02 13:36:53 &lt;pyrak>	grahl, yeah, that's why i think we could use a wiki team

Dec 02 13:37:07 &lt;skyfaller>	and once again a paid coordinator could handle much of the boring work that nobody wants to do, and coordinate volunteers who want to work on the more interesting things.&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:37:11 &lt;mecredis>	&lt;/answer

Dec 02 13:37:11 &lt;mecredis>	>

Dec 02 13:37:14 &lt;cameronparkins>	I think that te interaction between chapters, at this point, dosen't have to be concerned with getting every member doing something globally. that is why we have chapter specific heads - they can act as a relay between global and local, and i think thst is a good thing

Dec 02 13:37:14 &lt;pyrak>	also, skinning the wiki would make it more approachable, and the content would seem more important.

Dec 02 13:37:16 &lt;fear_of_c>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:37:35 &lt;e-star>	So as a result, I think relying on leaders and interpersonal connections to foster collaboration while taking care to not overwhelm chapter members is the way to go. &lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:37:37 &lt;hmorsi>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:37:45 &lt;cameronparkins>	&lt;/answer>

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Dec 02 13:38:29 &lt;pyrak>	i guess i'll end with, for me, idling in the IRC channel has helped me get involved with national. more people should be encouraged to just chat either in person or online. it's important that we have different media- irc, mailing lists, etc, because people prefer different ones

Dec 02 13:38:52 &lt;pyrak>	&lt;/answer>

Dec 02 13:38:55 &lt;fear_of_c>	if I can possibly add something: a lot of people don't know what IRC is :P

Dec 02 13:39:02 &lt;skyfaller>	pyrak: talk to Dmcsleep, I asked him to start a wiki team but he's the only member so far

Dec 02 13:39:15 &lt;cameronparkins>	fear_of_c: agreed

Dec 02 13:39:15 &lt;fear_of_c>	meaning a lot of members of various chapters, I'd imagine, are reluctant to try to figure it out for something like this

Dec 02 13:39:28 &lt;driscoll>	pyrak: word. maybe we need a sffc wow guild?

Dec 02 13:39:46 &lt;pyrak>	driscoll, totally. i think the planet is also a step in the right direction

Dec 02 13:39:49 &lt;skyfaller>	I'd like to propose that we have a "Frag the candidates" event at some later date :)

Dec 02 13:39:56 &lt;mllerustad>	skyfaller: seconded!

Dec 02 13:39:59 &lt;paulproteus>	brendanballou, Hi?

Dec 02 13:40:00 &lt;pyrak>	although with wow it's ironic, since it's closed-source software :/

Dec 02 13:40:01 &lt;fear_of_c>	skyfaller++

Dec 02 13:40:03 &lt;hmorsi>	skyfaller: I second that :)

Dec 02 13:40:09 &lt;brendanballou>	hello paulproteus

Dec 02 13:40:17 &lt;skyfaller>	we can all get together in OpenArena and have it out with railguns :)

Dec 02 13:40:17 &lt;driscoll>	skyfaller: i had great succcess with multiplayer freedoom last august. 32 players!

Dec 02 13:40:23 &lt;grahl>	does gmail do xmpp MUCs yet? that'd be a silly gateway to irc..

Dec 02 13:40:23 &lt;driscoll>	even better!

Dec 02 13:40:26 &lt;paulproteus>	Did you give some answer on this Q, brendanballou?

Dec 02 13:41:08 &lt;skyfaller>	for the record, I'm also concerned about getting chapter members involved on the global level so that when the current chapter leader/liason leaves there is still someone to carry on their work

Dec 02 13:41:14 *	christopherbdnk (n=christop@c-24-218-58-175.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #freeculture

Dec 02 13:41:18 &lt;brendanballou>	ah, unfortunately the last two questions I'm just a follower of e-star

Dec 02 13:41:32 &lt;skyfaller>	i.e. someone who has at least a vague understanding of the global org who can adequately represent their chapter

Dec 02 13:41:40 &lt;paulproteus>	No worries brendanballou, I'll consider your answer closed then?

Dec 02 13:41:51 &lt;brendanballou>	&lt;/answer?

Dec 02 13:41:52 &lt;brendanballou>	>

Dec 02 13:41:55 &lt;paulproteus>	If so, then this debate is over, but the IRC conversation can continue.

Dec 02 13:41:59 &lt;e-star>	wow, i feel so honored ;)

Dec 02 13:42:01 *	paulproteus pounds gavel &lt;/DEBATE>

