Archive:2006-12-06/Log

Gack, here's a big icky paste. skyfaller, What's the domain stuff you want to happen? I don't remember anymore, sorry.  skyfaller, that's quite easy to change.. as far as the colours etc go, klepas did a mockup which is available at http://klepas.org/2006/11/07/freecultureorg-revamp-mockup/  and the site i'm working on at http://www.matthewv.id.au/freeculture.org/ is just a copy of the mockup essentially  it still needs work, obviously.. but colour changes shouldn't be too hard  atm klepas is trying to get a proper export of the dropshadow from inkscape which is playing up, as can be seen that's true... color changes are pretty straightforward skyfaller, I'm ready to switch fc.o to my and Kees Cook's DNS if you are. Is it just the freeculture.org domain? I approve of most of Gavin's comments on the Flickr page as for the domains... we have secondary domains that need to be up e.g. Undeadart.org they're referenced in our Wikipedia article blogshine right skyfaller, Can you list them in the Domains section on http://wiki.freeculture.org/Website_documentation ? (Unless there's somewhere else it's documented?) I think those may actually be the only ones left that we host braindeadbarbie? there's freeculture.net Er, barbieinablender. skyfaller, "Don't tell me, tell the wiki." yeah, the barbie site isn't hosted by us and I don't think the domain is in our control either Intriguing. paulproteus, wiki.fc.o/Domains DHB still has it I think should be it gavinbaker, /me slaps himself i knew it would be important to have that info some day skyfaller, did i transfer blogshine to you? moin gavinbaker: you did someone wanted me? Hey now klepas. I was just chatting with MatthewV about the design. hey paulproteus  klepas, i was just talking about you oh :) ok, maybe when the domains page is updated someone can change it to reflect that :)  blaming you for every problem ;) :D It's meeting start time, everybody! http://wiki.freeculture.org/2006-12-06#Agenda is on our plate. skyfaller was raising some concerns about color on the new site layout. I think MatthewV said that CSS would be a good way to change that stuff. Is that an accurate summary of that? MatthewV, URL for current version, btw? So guys... I personally like the mockup I produced with Karen better, but I'm willing to compromise on aesthetic questions because I'm not a graphic designer, the design you're working on is fine.  There are a few things that I want to carry over from the design I worked on with Karen, though:  paulproteus, most can be changed with css, but the header's will have to be redone a little  http://www.matthewv.id.au/freeculture.org/ i like mine :) gavinbaker, yours was derived from klepas's, right? paulproteus, aye  gavinbaker, where?  skyfaller, where is your design? on the flickr thing  its quite possible to merge some idea  *ideas MatthewV: http://www.flickr.com/photos/skyfaller/sets/72157594362596250/ MatthewV, Quick bug: The magnifying lens isn't a submit button; how do I submit the search if I don't know to press enter? yeah, merging shouldn't be that hard... and I'm not sure about all of my/Karen's ideas anyway  paulproteus, the magnifying lens was a submit button, i as tweaking the js yesterday, i might have broken it MatthewV, Also, I sometimes have JS disabled; it'd be cool (but I won't go so far as to call it a showstopper) if things work JSlessly.  skyfaller, the green could be an offset to the balck/greay  paulproteus, its possible, but then things like the fancy checkboxes will have to be foregone hm, perhaps I should write this somewhere other than IRC, but the main things I want from my design: (1) buttons across the top instead of in a sidebar (2) some color (possibly green?) (3) the "cultural environmentalism" theme, if not necessarily in the form of a matrix tree MatthewV, Interesting, I'll leave that to you for now.  gavinbaker, so your design basically involves putting blogs below the intro.. and putting chapters in the sidebar? the problem with (1) is that if the buttons have icons, that makes it harder to put them across the top, so if we have large icons then I suppose you're right to put them down the side... i'm just not sure that the things in those buttons are the most important things that we want to draw attention to <MatthewV> skyfaller, it is possible to put icons in a top bar, and then run the icons either above the text or to the left or right of it MatthewV, hang on a sec <MatthewV> then we could also try work in a featured project :) or whatever it is you are looking for MatthewV, the main change in my mockup is replacing all the text in klepas' draft with feeds from the blogs <MatthewV> gavinbaker, yes, you've also got rid of search, is that intentional ? dynamic rather than a whole bunch of static content MatthewV, i also made other changes, which are all intentional, and made extensive comments on the Flickr page of other things i would change some of the changes i reverse in the comments such as, a full list of chapters may not fit well in the sidebar it may be better to bring back the search bar, and put other content on the right sidebar as well gavinbaker: I'd like to base the new site on Wordpress, so I think we should have a standard Wordpress sidebar Eh, what standard WP sidebar? yeah, i thought we decided that a WP theme is probably the easiest way to do this <MatthewV> skyfaller, you mean archives, calendar, meta etc <MatthewV> ? MatthewV: yeah, basically, I mean WP sidebars are customizable so we can add other stuff as well Oh, interesting, we could make these thing WordPress Widgets if we wanted to. paulproteus: exactly Widgets are fun :) and easy to move around! <MatthewV> hmm... a wp theme.. that could be fun ! My actual ambition is to base the site on like Wordpress Mu or something it's just XHTML / CSS with WP's CSS plugged in and replace the Planet installs with FeedWordpress installs And WP's PHP for the sidebar stuff, you're right. ...that's what i meant stupid abbreviations I'm a huge fan of the WP theme engine, and the ability to change the look of the site with the push of a button would be awesome it also makes it easy to use plugins like Bad Behavior across the entire site You mean Akismet, but okay. paulproteus: why not both? We have both Bad Behavior and Akismet installed Isn't the point of Bad Behavior that it stops bots from reaching your site in the first place, not just keeping them out of your comments? skyfaller, Sure, both, okay, whatever. (-; but that's a separate debate... point is we can use all sorts of plugins and have them be effective across the whole site and we could even borrow WP's forums if we decide that we should finally get a forum... I don't want to be a moderator though :P is Mu neccessary? that would give us a single login throughout the site If we want to host other blogs on it, like for subdomains, it would be neat to do a multi-bloggable thing. Plus separate blogs can have separate themes. yeah, and I think the unified login is really cool skyfaller, Psst, OpenID could do this too. paulproteus: point, but wouldn't you have to set it up each time for each of our blogs? this is long-term stuff that we can worry about later though how many blogs do we need? gavinbaker: well, we could set up project pages quickly simply by creating a new WP blog we can pull the blogshine WP install into the Mu install this is a good selling point "new project" = new WP theme with a subdomain or directory exactly how much larger is Mu than WP? Psst, we want Lyceum over Mu. (-; but for the first step, (A) I want to implement this design as a WP theme, and throw it up on our blog and see how it looks. (B) Once we're happy with it, we can roll it out across our entire website.  (C) Then we can talk about MU or whatever and how much extra space does each new "blog" use? gavinbaker, On-disk, hardly any.  In-database, not all that much either. I think on-disk: zero, actually. paulproteus: I like the direction that MU is taking on Wordpress.com, and Wordpress.com has a large userbase / lots of developer energy behind it.  I'm perfectly willing to consider other alternatives, though oh hey, is anyone taking minutes? I don't think so re: minutes.  I can if desired. paulproteus: please do :)  I'll give you a cookie minutes can be taken ex post facto w/ log gavinbaker: agreed, but someone should do it eventually skyfaller, i get plenty of cookies for free just by surfing the web gavinbaker: shhh, stop diminishing the value of my bribes brownies are rarer worth more GP MatthewV, Maybe you can summarize what people think about the design in the minutes section for "current design"? as for quartering the page content, the 4 things that I think are most important for new visitors to see are (1) what is free culture? (2) What is our current project? (with some history of past projects) (3) What's new with FC.o? (4) What are the chapters up to? (and what chapters do we have?) this doesn't have to be done by literally dividing our front page up into four squares/rectangles but it seemed like a logical method to me i don't like 4 square design I don't either, personally. i think (1) is like, two sentences max, with a link to more gavinbaker: right, these would all be links to more I find it too visually equivocal. "Which of these same-looking things should I look at?" is what I think when I see it. (3) and (4) sound like RSS from the blogs / chapters paulproteus: right, which is where I want graphics to come in gavinbaker: correct (2), i'm not sure where it goes maybe in the right sidebar of klepas / my design gavinbaker: I want wherever (2) is to have a nice graphic illustrating our current campaign I think each of my 4 things should have a nice graphic attracting your eye to it that's why I'm a little concerned about the menu bar having buttons too and making it confusing if that makes any sense I agree. MatthewV, ping? <MatthewV> paulproteus, yeah sry <MatthewV> just got back from a quick dash off MatthewV, if you want, chat rather than do minutes. Yeah, chat with skyfaller about boxes and icons and all that. klepas, too, if possible. (-: I think (4) the chapters RSS feed should have a picture of, um, FC chapter members doing something in a group, e.g. one of our record store protests or the Santa Cruz f2fp2p/cd trade thing <MatthewV> paulproteus, yeah klepas is the one who does the graphics ;) klepas, MatthewV, What do you make of skyfaller's idea that each of the four things we highlight (as per skyfaller) having icons and de-iconifying the things on the left? skyfaller, the photo could be selected at random from a group each time the page is loaded paulproteus: i haven't been following the meeting, sorry =S or pull from flickr photos tagged "free culture" or from the group, or something like that gavinbaker: yeah, that would be fine... we just have to go pick out a few good representatives. <MatthewV> paulproteus, so basically the left is a text menu, and we have an icon on the four diff elements on the page? gavinbaker: Not just general photos from the Flickr group, I'd want them to clearly show multiple FC chapter members doing something... many of the photos in our flickr group don't meet that criteria the menu could go across the top rather down the left MatthewV, Right, exactly, an icon on each of the four diff elements. also the picture should be relatively pretty <MatthewV> that could look alright.. it'd solve the problem of the menu being too tall for 1024x768 atm klepas, This is why I wanted to make sure you were awake, since we were talking substantive design things. (-: ok folks, time to go, have fun MatthewV: yeah, I really prefer the menu going across the top <MatthewV> paulproteus, yep playing around with that idea on a diff site atm too :) MatthewV, Sweet. (-: <MatthewV> well.. could we have a vote on where to stick the menu? well, if we de-iconify them, I think it's definitely correct to put the menu items across the top the only reason they need vertical space is because of those icons <MatthewV> btw, i need to know, are we worrying about ie-compatability at all <MatthewV> or more specifically, ie < 7 MatthewV, Yeah, we should be IE compatible. MatthewV, But let's deal with that lats. paulproteus: i'll read the minutes or ths log later i'm kinda massively busy atm yeah, we can hack it to work with IE after we have it looking the way we want klepas, No prob then. s/lats/last/ <MatthewV> paulproteus, because that throws a lot of ideas out, unless we integrate some js script hacks I FIRMLY approve of JS hacks for IE. Let those IE users suffer. <MatthewV> there is a script available that will actually force ie6 to render most things correctly This reminds me of http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/. <MatthewV> paulproteus, :) <MatthewV> paulproteus, that's actually the script i was talking about.. came across it a few weeks ago :) btw So okay, MatthewV, can you whip up a prototype that implements skyfaller and gavin's ideas? quick note dojotoolkit.org :) alright, so we're agreed, javascript hacks for IE users but not for those who use real browsers? ;-) <MatthewV> klepas, :) <MatthewV> skyfaller, yeah could do that... although things like custom checkboxes will also need js MatthewV: I'm not sure I'm clear on that... paulproteus ? skyfaller, We have an image that acts like a checkbox. skyfaller, That image can't act like a checkbox unless you use JS. <MatthewV> so we either forgo that or utilise js for cusomt checkboxes, or i might be able to make it so that it shows standard unless js is enabled paulproteus: so is this bad? Why is it bad? <MatthewV> not sure exactly, i'd ahve to look into that <MatthewV> skyfaller, paulproteus doesnt use js sometimes ;) MatthewV: that sounds like a neat solution I would want to be able to use the page normally if JS is turned off MatthewV, We can worry about working without JS later. yes, I second that... get the general idea first, then play with the hacks to make it compatible with everything <MatthewV> ok, i'll look into that one MatthewV, skyfaller, We all agree that since dean.edwards.name/IE7/ doesn't include itself unless you use IE 5 or IE6, then it's non-intrusive for non-those users. (Just wanted to be explicit about that.) paulproteus: correct <MatthewV> paulproteus, yep :) <MatthewV> the transparent png fix especially will be important MatthewV, Would it be at all feasible to whip up a prototype for skyfaller's and Gavin's ideas within 30m? Then maybe I can look at more techy stuff (e.g., domains) during that time and we can see what their ideas would be like. <MatthewV> paulproteus, maybe, but its lunchtime ;) MatthewV, Oh, crikey, I forgot about that. <MatthewV> paulproteus, sorry... i'm still at home, so if its lunch i need to go to the table and eat or i miss out <MatthewV> usually anyway ;) <MatthewV> anyway, so sry, but which ideas, specifically were we implementing then? <MatthewV> d'you want me to modify existing or start again MatthewV, Modify existing would be fine, I should think. <MatthewV> k.. so skyfaller's idea is to put the menu across the top? And the four boxes stuff, I think? <MatthewV> and gavin's is the blogs/dynamic contnet? is that right? <MatthewV> so we want them as 4 columns, or a 2x2, or? erm, I thought we were mushing the two ideas together I thought so too. I was trying to scroll to make sure of that. and this is where minutes come in handy ;-) skyfaller, Yes, just hard to discuss and take minutes. <MatthewV> i'm just trying to make sure of exactly what it is we want before i slap together a mockup paulproteus: agreed <MatthewV> well.. a functional page, but a messy one skyfaller, how about you and MatthewV chat about what he should be building for a prototype of your ideas? well, I guess the problem is that my suggestion assumes 4 rectangles, which I think would work fine when they have graphics attached, and others have expressed skepticism.... paulproteus ? <paulproteus_> Hi, I'm online on both computers, sorry about the nick confusion. <MatthewV> how about having a 'rectangle' across the top with what is free culture.. and then below that trhee columns... <MatthewV> with what's new, projects, and chapters I dunno, I think that might actually be worse, b/c it's too thin to have graphics and text together? <MatthewV> skyfaller, across the top? <MatthewV> hmm <MatthewV> i was thinking maybe a translucent icon behind the text with the 4 squares method, you have plenty of room in both dimensions, allowing you to mix graphics and text in an attractive fashion no, I veto images behind the text those always make sites hard to read or prevent you from seeing the image well <MatthewV> skyfaller, the problem with 4 squares is vertical height is dependant on content, which means large resolutions result in empty spaces, or... MatthewV: I'm not 100% sure I understand you... <MatthewV> unless we have two top squares, and then the bottom ones can expand downwards as necessary MatthewV: yes, that is exactly what I'm suggesting <MatthewV> skyfaller, ok :) <MatthewV> sry, i'm not always cleaer the two bottoms "squares" would be the dynamic feeds <MatthewV> *clear the "what is free culture" square would be static content (2 sentences of introduction with a link to more), and the "current project" would be semi-static (only changing every few months) so those can be carefully tailored to the space needed <MatthewV> skyfaller, yep that'd make sense.. the what's new and the chapters on the bottom paulproteus: can we use the freeculture.net domain to create a test version of the new site? <MatthewV> skyfaller, i have my own domain i can work with MatthewV: I think that's what's suggested in the original diagram from almost a year ago :) http://www.flickr.com/photos/skyfaller/290078001/in/set-72157594362596250/ MatthewV: ah, OK <MatthewV> skyfaller, of course, if you want it on freeculture.net i have no objection <paulproteus_> skyfaller, Tell me again, fc.net or MatthewV's domain? MatthewV: Yeah, I think it would be better for FC testing to be on the FC servers... that way others can get involved without getting into your personal website <MatthewV> skyfaller, yeah ok thats fine MatthewV, paulproteus_ .... to be clear, the mockup etc. can be on MatthewV's website, I mean the final testing should be done on FC.net <paulproteus_> MatthewV, Do you have an SSH key I can add to authorized_keys? <MatthewV> paulproteus_, hmm i think so... like, I want us to have the website running exactly the way it would on FC.org, on FC.net before we flip the switch <MatthewV> skyfaller, yep sounds good <MatthewV> paulproteus_, would that be the same as my gpg key or not? i'm no expert with taht That's where I think we should experiment with (2) moving the whole site into Wordpress, and then (3) moving it into Wordpress MU or Lyceum man, I really do have a tendency to number things, don't I? <MatthewV> skyfaller, yep thats you ;) but I only want to play with that stuff after we have a working theme for our current Wordpress blog <paulproteus_> MatthewV, No, SSH keys are different. OK folks, I have to go, any last things you need from me? <MatthewV> paulproteus_, ok then, how would i go about making (or finding one)? <paulproteus_> Well, MatthewV, do you have some sense of what skyfaller wants changed? <MatthewV> paulproteus_, skyfaller my understanding is a box design, and a top, iconless menu <MatthewV> with nice integration with graphjics in the boxes <paulproteus_> skyfaller, Can you ACK/NAC that? <paulproteus_> ACK/NAK, that is. MatthewV: right on.  MatthewV: we can talk graphics at some other time <MatthewV> skyfaller, no probs.. i'll drop tango icons in for now <paulproteus_> MatthewV, http://www.puddingonline.com/~dave/publications/SSH-with-Keys-HOWTO/document/html/SSH-with-Keys-HOWTO-4.html <paulproteus_> Use the version 2 section. MatthewV: I'll idle in this channel, if you need to get in touch with me. <paulproteus_> MatthewV, Basically, do: <paulproteus_> $ ssh-keygen <paulproteus_> $ ssh-keygen -t dsa <MatthewV> paulproteus_, ok thanks.. i'll work it out and let you know when its done <paulproteus_> Do the "-t dsa" one, ignore the one I said with no arguments. wacom tablets are fun toys <paulproteus_> MatthewV, You run Ubuntu or Debian, yes? <MatthewV> paulproteus_, ubuntu yes <MatthewV> paulproteus_, what do you need then? <paulproteus_> MatthewV, Please paste to pastebin.ca the contents of ~/.ssh/id_dsa.pub <paulproteus_> MatthewV, I'll add that to the fco web server and then tell you to try logging in. <MatthewV> paulproteus_, ok will do <paulproteus_> Once pasted to pastebin.ca, say the URL. <MatthewV> :) i've used pastebin before Omnifrrog is aka omnifrog; omnifrog is the proud originator of Fair Use Day <MatthewV> paulproteus_, http://pastebin.ca/270176 <paulproteus_> MatthewV, Please do: $ ssh freecult@freeculture.org <paulproteus_> Do you get a shell there? (-: my god folks, have you read this thread about Leafyhost? I'm really glad that we're off their servers. http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/599009962631/m/279003894731/p/49 <MatthewV> paulproteus_, i'm there ;) <paulproteus_> MatthewV, Welcome aboard. (-: <MatthewV> paulproteus_, thankyou :) <MatthewV> maybe i should add myself to the webteam wiki? <paulproteus_> MatthewV, Absolutely, thanks for remembering. <paulproteus_> re: freeculture.org: I don't think I have anything specific to tell you to do now that your shell there works. You'll rework your design on your server, you said? <MatthewV> paulproteus_, not a prob <MatthewV> paulproteus_, yes thats correct.. once i got a working design there i'll upload to wherever you want it <paulproteus_> skyfaller, I don't understand, what's this thread about? <paulproteus_> skyfaller, /me hits page 1 <paulproteus_> MatthewV, Sounds good. <paulproteus_> skyfaller, I don't understand what's going on in this huge thread. paulproteus_: it's about the "leafycaust".... the trials and tribulations of other Leafyhost customers after the hard drive exploded <paulproteus_> skyfaller, Ah, okay.  Yeah, I know enough about that already for ten people. <MatthewV> paulproteus_, this may sound like a while, but i'm working tonight, so how about i have a design done say friday morning ;) my time paulproteus_: basically, Leafyhost repeatedly fails to ship the drive out to data recovery, for over 2 months <MatthewV> that'd be in about 20 hours <paulproteus_> MatthewV, That's not too bad at all. <paulproteus_> MatthewV, Email the webteam list with updates, like "omg my cat died have to postpone" or "Here's a new link". <MatthewV> paulproteus_, ok :) no guarentees though paulproteus_: and in the meantime, the Leafyhost guys make blog posts about the fun they are having doing things like spooning with their girlfriends or playing in the snow, instead of saving their customers' data <MatthewV> paulproteus_, ok, i'll feel stupid though, i'll be the only one emailing the list ;) what was there.. one post in nov? <paulproteus_> MatthewV, Well, the "leafycaust" ate our old archives. <paulproteus_> MatthewV, But sure, only one post in Nov. <MatthewV> heh.. ok paulproteus_: and people get pissed and do things like comment on the girlfriend's blog <paulproteus_> Well, that's silly. <paulproteus_> skyfaller, Do you have a sec to talk about the freeculture.org domain? <paulproteus_> skyfaller, I think you should switch the DNS servers to (primary) idic.laroia.net and (secondary) ns.spaces.org. <paulproteus_> That shouldn't require any talking, just you saying "ok" and filling out some web forms with the registrar. <paulproteus_> Then we'll be off their NS, too. paulproteus_: really? great! <paulproteus_> skyfaller, /me nods <paulproteus_> Now go do it. incidentally, blogshine.org and freeculture.net are expiring in February... We should have a discussion towards the end of January about whether to renew <paulproteus_> skyfaller, It's terrible to have domains expire. ok, then we'll renew them :) paulproteus_: so, how about all of our secondary domains? should I change their DNS servers too? paulproteus_: OK, FC.o's nameservers are changed. Hope you're ready ^_^ <paulproteus_> skyfaller, Sounds good. paulproteus_: is that "yes, change the DNS for the secondary domains as well"? <paulproteus_> skyfaller, no no no. (-: <MatthewV> paulproteus_, what should i call myself on the wiki? <paulproteus_> MatthewV, I dunno, how's MatthewV? <paulproteus_> However you like to be called, really. <MatthewV> paulproteus_, nah i meant that tagline thing that ppl ahve ;) <paulproteus_> MatthewV, Oh, okay. <paulproteus_> In that case, whatever you want! (-: <MatthewV> thats where i got stuck ;) for now i put in maths fanatci, will/may change later <MatthewV> there! that aoughtta do it ;) <MatthewV> k.. i should have this new design finished by this time tmrw, and then unfotrtunately i'm gove for a week <MatthewV> *gone <paulproteus_> MatthewV, Cool, we'll see what we can do in your absence. Thanks a bundle. (-:
 * paulproteus dances
 * MatthewV slouches
 * MatthewV looks
 * paulproteus mutters things about Bad Behavior and the guy who maintains it
 * paulproteus nods
 * klepas looks up
 * gavinbaker has quit ("Leaving")
 * paulproteus scrolls
 * paulproteus_ (n=paulprot@taniwha.acm.jhu.edu) has joined #freeculture
 * Omnifrog is now known as plumber
 * plumber is now known as Omnifrrog
 * Omnifrrog is now known as Omnifrog
 * MatthewV logs off before he does something stupid
 * paulproteus_ shrugs