Archive:2007-08-16/log

Log file opened at: 8/16/07 5:03:21 PM


 * Topic for &#35;freeculture: FreeCulture.org: students for free culture | http://freeculture.org/ | Bug tracker: http://launchpad.net/web/+bugs | In case of downtime: http://fcostatus.wordpress.com/ | Bylaws RC2 meeting, 2007-08-16 at 8 pm EDT: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Bylaws


 * Topic for &#35;freeculture set by gavinbaker on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 9:26:57 PM

&#35;freeculture: peabo dirty_harry Lam_ mark007 tannewt ftobia skyfaller_ conley danjared jli K`Tetch johnsu01 klepas jibot sahal _sj_ [autonomy] paulproteus poningru


 * End of /NAMES list.


 * peabo    H     0     n=peabo@c-24-147-25-140.hsd1.ma.comcast.net Peter Olson


 * dirty_harrH    0     n=ryanfaer@adsl-8-178-178.mia.bellsouth.net Ryan Faerman


 * Lam_     H     0        n=Lam@246-200.127-70.tampabay.res.rr.com Lam


 * mark007  H     0n=mark007@pool-71-101-200-240.tampfl.dsl-w.veriz Mark


 * tannewt  H     0                n=scott@gentoo/developer/tannewt Unknown


 * ftobia   H     0       n=chatzill@ool-18bb9b30.dyn.optonline.net Frank Tobia


 * skyfaller_H    0    n=nelson@c-69-143-179-58.hsd1.va.comcast.net Nelson Pavlosky


 * conley   H     0                      n=ibcliffo@spode.cs.vt.edu gaim


 * danjared H     0                  n=danjared@VINEGAR-POT.MIT.EDU D. Jared Dominguez


 * jli      G     0            i=jli@gateway/tor/x-450fc11e9503f16a Jli


 * K`Tetch  H     0n=ktetch@adsl-074-166-105-206.sip.asm.bellsouth. K`Tetch


 * johnsu01 H     0                       n=user@fsf/staff/johnsu01 John Sullivan (http://www.wjsullivan.net)


 * klepas   G     0                    n=klepas@unaffiliated/klepas Pascal Klein


 * jibot    H     0                            i=andy@83.145.232.84 #JoiIto's bot


 * sahal    G     0             i=hobo@outbound.silenceisdefeat.org can't get enough of that sugarcrisp...


 * _sj_     H     0                               n=sj@wikipedia/sj sjk


 * [autonomy]H    0 n=autonomy@c-71-232-117-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net auto


 * paulproteuG    0           i=paulprot@29.145.221.202.bf.2iij.net Asheesh Laroia


 * poningru H     0        n=poningru@ip72-209-65-174.ga.at.cox.net Eldo Varghese


 * &#35;freeculture End of /WHO list.


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 * &#35;freeculture You need to be a channel operator to do that


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jibot: Omnifrog is the proud originator of Fair Use Day


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Fahre451: Hi

K`Tetch: lo

Fahre451: hi K


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 * gavinbaker (n=gavin@c-69-143-179-58.hsd1.va.comcast.net) has joined channel &#35;freeculture

jibot: gavinbaker is Gavin Baker, a 3rd year political science student at the University of Florida and president of Florida Free Culture . His Web site is www.gavinbaker.com


 * gavinbaker has set the topic on channel &#35;freeculture to FreeCulture.org: students for free culture | http://freeculture.org/ | Bug tracker: http://launchpad.net/web/+bugs | In case of downtime: http://fcostatus.wordpress.com/ | Bylaws RC2 meeting, tonight at 8 pm EDT: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Bylaws

gavinbaker: wait, jibot, wtf? you lost my ?def and replaced it with an old one

gavinbaker: ?def gavinbaker is Gavin Baker

jibot: gavinbaker is Gavin Baker, a 3rd year political science student at the University of Florida and president of Florida Free Culture . His Web site is www.gavinbaker.com and Gavin Baker

gavinbaker: er

gavinbaker: ?forgetme

jibot: I have expunged gavinbaker from my mind

gavinbaker: ?def gavinbaker is Gavin Baker

jibot: gavinbaker is Gavin Baker

gavinbaker: ?def gavinbaker is www.gavinbaker.com

jibot: gavinbaker is Gavin Baker and www.gavinbaker.com

gavinbaker: ?def gavinbaker is an alumnus of the University of Florida

jibot: gavinbaker is Gavin Baker and www.gavinbaker.com and an alumnus of the University of Florida

gavinbaker: meeting in 5

gavinbaker: ok, happy fun meeting time!

gavinbaker: _sj_ danjared e-star jibot mark007 paulproteus poningru skyfaller_


 * skyfaller_ is now known as skyfaller

e-star: yes?

gavinbaker: http://wiki.freeculture.org/2007-08-16

e-star: wait, i thought the meeting was tomorrow?

e-star: i'm in singapore and it's 8am

skyfaller: e-star: nope, it's now :)

gavinbaker: sorry

e-star: oh i see

e-star: yes, it's thursday

gavinbaker: how's singapore?

e-star: (i think it's friday here)

e-star: i literally just arrived

e-star: it's rainy

gavinbaker: if it's 8am there, it should be friday :)

gavinbaker: e-star, don't spit on the sidewalk or anything

gavinbaker: they're pretty strict there, from what i hear.

e-star: yeah yeah

gavinbaker: ;)

gavinbaker: so is anybody here for happy fun meeting time?

skyfaller: yeah

skyfaller: let's do this thing


 * gavinbaker hopes there's somebody else

skyfaller: wishful thinking, gavin

skyfaller: alright, first item on the agenda is finishing up RC1

skyfaller: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Bylaws#Section_1.1._Board_Elections ... lines 3, 4, and 5

gavinbaker: boo

gavinbaker: i guess there might be stragglers

gavinbaker: i hope so

gavinbaker: skyfaller: will you paste line 3 here?

skyfaller: Elections must be called when the number of board members threatens to drop below the minimum required, so as to fill any empty seats. Otherwise, elections will be called once a year in the spring for all seats on the board.

gavinbaker: oh

gavinbaker: joy

gavinbaker: so first, what's the "minimum required"?

gavinbaker: well, i think we agreed in principle (last mtg) that, when there are vacancies, you have elections

gavinbaker: so we can replace this section with that, and not re-hash old ground

gavinbaker: we have to decide a procedure for doing that though


 * skyfallertest (i=[U2FsdGV@centaur.acm.jhu.edu) has joined channel &#35;freeculture

skyfallert: hm

skyfallert: yay, I'm not lagging out now

skyfallert: I don't know why my IRC is so unreliable

skyfallert: anyway

skyfallert: what procedure? for deciding when there is a vacancy?

gavinbaker: no

gavinbaker: it's pretty easy to know when there's a vacancy

gavinbaker: the procedure for what happens when there is a vacancy

gavinbaker: i.e. how you hold elections in that case


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 * mllerustad (n=mllerust@c-75-73-208-193.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) has joined channel &#35;freeculture

jibot: mllerustad is a music nerd and Karen Rustad and a student at Scripps College in Claremont, CA and on FreeCulture.org's board

skyfallert: so what has to be different from the normal election cycle, aside from the fact that there is (hopefully) only one vacancy?

gavinbaker: what's the timeline?

skyfallert: hm...

skyfallert: what's our timeline for a normal election?

skyfallert: did we spell that out in the bylaws?

gavinbaker: yeah

gavinbaker: let's see

gavinbaker: oh fuck, we have like, 3 meetings we haven't folded into RC2

gavinbaker: goodness knows where we decided that

skyfallert: :/

gavinbaker: oh

gavinbaker: we already covered this on http://wiki.freeculture.org/2007-08-08/log

gavinbaker: "If a board member resigns, nominations and elections for an interim board member will be conducted in the same fashion as for normal elections as described in V.1.1."

skyfallert: oh, good

gavinbaker: let's see what it says in V.1.1, though

gavinbaker: to make sure that makes sense

skyfaller: .... I'm not sure where to find that text

gavinbaker: this is really confusing

gavinbaker: i'm concerned at the fact we don't have notes from all these meetings

gavinbaker: just the logs

gavinbaker: so we have to comb through them to try to figure out what was decided :-/

skyfaller: yeah, it is bad that we don't take real-time minutes

skyfaller: mllerustad took some minutes, but she hasn't had the time to do much with them

skyfaller: and we also stopped taking minutes after she left last time I think

gavinbaker: oh i'm finding it

skyfaller: ORLY?

gavinbaker: oh ok

gavinbaker: http://wiki.freeculture.org/2007-08-08/log

gavinbaker: oh wait, maybe not

gavinbaker: that's for amendments

gavinbaker: --did we fail to decide this?

skyfaller: the timeline?

skyfaller: I think we were just going to leave it to the board or something

gavinbaker: that doesn't make sense

gavinbaker: at all

gavinbaker: "yeah we'll just have nominations open for 2 seconds"

gavinbaker: "oh whoops looks like nobody was nominated"

gavinbaker: "guess we'll just be re-elected huh"

skyfaller: yeah...

skyfaller: hm.

gavinbaker: i swear we decided it, but i can't find where...

gavinbaker: we decided a timeline for amendments

gavinbaker: well, let's pretend we didn't decide it

gavinbaker: what would be a reasonable timeline?

gavinbaker: the process looks like this

gavinbaker: 1) there's a vacancy

gavinbaker: 2) call for nominations

gavinbaker: 3) nominations close

gavinbaker: 4) voting begins

gavinbaker: 5) voting closes

gavinbaker: = you've elected an interim board member

gavinbaker: so what's the timeline look like for that

gavinbaker: keeping in mind that the whole board will be up for elected no later than 12 months from any given date

gavinbaker: buh, this sucks, but it'd suck more if we gave up and had to come back to this

skyfaller: I have no idea what a reasonable timeline is

gavinbaker: well, according to the timeline in http://freeculture.org/blog/2007/07/21/fco-gets-organized-this-summer/

gavinbaker: nominations would be open for a week

gavinbaker: followed by a week for voting

gavinbaker: i think that was just the first time, to avoid running into the schoolyear

gavinbaker: it's a pretty breakneck pace and i think it shouldn't be that short a time

gavinbaker: but it shouldn't be terribly long, because it's an interim position, so a.) you want to get it filled and b.) it's only temporary anyway

skyfaller: so double that?

skyfaller: 2 weeks for each?

gavinbaker: i think that wouldn't be crazy

gavinbaker: that means you go a month with a vacancy

gavinbaker: which isn't too terrible

skyfaller: yeah

skyfaller: let's do that

gavinbaker: especially since there could only be 2 meetings of the board in that time

gavinbaker: and hopefully the board doesn't choose to meet that frequently

skyfaller: yeah

skyfaller: shall we resolve this?

skyfaller: if it's retarded, people with real world experience can amend it ^_^

gavinbaker: yeah, i'd rather have a dumb decision than no decision, and those seem to be the options

gavinbaker: dumb decisions can always be fixed later

gavinbaker: so here's the existing language: "Elections must be called when the number of board members threatens to drop below the minimum required, so as to fill any empty seats. Otherwise, elections will be called once a year in the spring for all seats on the board."

gavinbaker: we can scrap the 2nd sentence because we're assuming that we wrote in a timeline for normal board elections (though i can't find it atm)

K`Tetch: not going to 50-50 cycle?

gavinbaker: (and if we didn't actually do that, we'll notice later and fix it then)

gavinbaker: K`Tetch: sorry wha?

K`Tetch: nothing, ignore me, getting confused

skyfaller: didn't we change the first sentence too?

skyfaller: to say something more like "an election will be called whenever someone resigns, or whenever there is a vacancy?"

gavinbaker: skyfaller: yeah that's what i'm getting at

gavinbaker: so we replace the first sentence with what we just RESOLVED

gavinbaker: In the event of a vacancy on the board, the Coordinator shall, within 72 hours, announce the vacancy and open nominations for an interim board member to fill the vacant seat.

gavinbaker: well, hang on

e-star: oops i fell asleep

gavinbaker: lulz

e-star: does someone want to give me a one-sentence update or should i scroll back?

gavinbaker: are we setting this AT 14 days, or NO LESS THAN 14 days?

gavinbaker: e-star: uh we're trying to figure out the timeline to fill vacancies on the board

gavinbaker: and failed to remember if we set a timeline for regular board elections

gavinbaker: other than that they happen annually

e-star: aha, i just scrolled back

e-star: haha

skyfaller: we should probably put similar language in the regular board elections section

gavinbaker: so... are we setting this AT 14 days each, or NO LESS THAN 14 days each?

gavinbaker: skyfaller: i was going to assume that we already decided that, but it's not a very safe assumption

skyfaller: well, you had the concern that the board would be like, "oh, hey, nominations were open for 2 seconds, too bad people we don't support didn't get nominated"

skyfaller: so we probably should set a minimum time as well as a max

skyfaller: we could make the two times the same

gavinbaker: yes, which is the same as saying "=14"

gavinbaker: we could also say "> or =14"

gavinbaker: that's my question, which

skyfaller: I dunno, wanna make the minimum 7 days, and the max 14 days?

skyfaller: enh

gavinbaker: no, i think 7 is too little

gavinbaker: we just went over that

skyfaller: whatever, just set it at 14 days exactly

skyfaller: seems simple that way

gavinbaker: i think i favor "> or = 14"

gavinbaker: because that way, if it's a dumb choice

skyfaller: OK, fine with e

gavinbaker: then it can just be made longer

skyfaller: *fine with me

gavinbaker: without having to amend the bylaws (or break them)

skyfaller: I don't know if it's fine with E

gavinbaker: well, it's 9 am in singapore, so i'm not going to ask too much of her

gavinbaker: as they say to do unto others as you would have done unto you

gavinbaker: and if i was in singapore at 9 am, i'd want to be left tf alone

skyfaller: heh

skyfaller: ok, so RESOLVED: nominations will be open for 14 days, polls will be open for 14 days

skyfaller: +1 I say

gavinbaker: at least?

skyfaller: right

skyfaller: my bad

skyfaller: *at least 14 days*

skyfaller: I lose

gavinbaker: so, RESOLVED

gavinbaker: In the event of a vacancy on the board, the Coordinator shall, within 72 hours, announce the vacancy and open nominations for an interim board member to fill the vacant seat.

gavinbaker: Nominations will be open for no less than 14 days. Following nominations, voting will be open for no less than 14 days.

skyfaller: sounds good

skyfaller: +1

gavinbaker: Voting procedures shall be the same as for regular board elections. The winner shall immediately become an interim board member, with all the rights and responsibilities of a board member.

gavinbaker: Seats of the board which are vacated and filled by interim board members shall be subject to the same election cycle to the regular board elections.

skyfaller: sounds good

gavinbaker: If the vacancy occurs 31 days or less prior to a regular board election, the seat shall remain vacant until the regular election.

skyfaller: ah, a good addition

gavinbaker: that's all i got

skyfaller: ok, so are we done with that "line"?

skyfallert: line 3?

skyfallert: can we move on to 4?

e-star: guys


 * contra (n=blm@pool-71-248-253-200.cmdnnj.east.verizon.net) has joined channel &#35;freeculture

e-star: sorry, i missed this interim board member thing

e-star: or is that just the person we'll elect until the next elections?

e-star: i was thinking it's someone to fill the seat until the election is decided

e-star: heh

skyfaller: just the person we'll elect

skyfaller: nobody is unelected

e-star: gotcha

contra: how are the bylaws going [he asks nonchalantly]?

gavinbaker: contra: ...swimmingly

gavinbaker: yeah, on to the next line

gavinbaker: "Only current members of chapters, alumni of chapters, or people who have previously served the Organization in other capacities for at least a year shall be eligible to stand for election to the board. There is no limit to the number of terms that a person may serve on the board."

gavinbaker: before we deal with the first sentence there, is everybody ok with the second sentence?

gavinbaker: i'm happy with it

gavinbaker: contra, skyfaller, e-star, anybody

contra: sounds OK to me, but I just got here, so I don't count :)

gavinbaker: contra: you're here, that counts for something

contra: I'm curious, though, about how it relates to the first sentence. Is that one year the previous year, or "some time in the past" the person had to be active?

contra: because it sort of leads to problems with a person who was distantly active still staying on the board

e-star: yeah i guess if we see the board remains the same for a while, we might want to amend it

e-star: but for now it should be okay

gavinbaker: dictators-for-life, heh

gavinbaker: if people don't like they'll vote the bums out

gavinbaker: i'm not sure who would choose this anyway

gavinbaker: but it sounds like the second sentence is fine

e-star: i'm about to pass out again

e-star: going on little to no sleep for 36 hrs

gavinbaker: e-star, heh, dont blame you

gavinbaker: on the first half, what if we just change it to the same criterion for nominating, "Members of any chapter (as defined by the chapter) and current members of the board of directors"?

gavinbaker: seems like the people who can nominate should be the same people who can stand for election

contra: so only members of chapters can run?

gavinbaker: contra: i think the idea of that definition was that a chapter could define its alumni to be members

gavinbaker: which i, personally, think is dumb, but that's what we decided

contra: well, an alumni is still considered "part" of the university, so I guess it makes sense in its way

contra: it kind of prevents anyone from being abandoned

gavinbaker: or, i suppose, a faculty member, or staff, or random hoboes

contra: but under that idea, yes, I think we should change it to be only members of chapters

gavinbaker: but anyway, that's what we decided, and it seems to only make sense to be consistent

contra: since alums can be members of chapters

gavinbaker: "people who have previously served the Organization in other capacities for at least a year" is very problematic, because wtf does that mean?

gavinbaker: the lady who does my dry cleaning?

gavinbaker: it expresses very poorly the idea, and the idea is problematic itself, so i want to get rid of it

skyfaller: I agree

contra: I agree, I was going to comment on that until you asked to discuss only the second sentence

gavinbaker: that would leave us with "current chapter members and alumni", which we could use, but we already have this pre-existing definition of chapter members

contra: if it's going to be vague, it should be vague for a reason, and I think it's fine to limit members to current students and alums

gavinbaker: which can be functionally equivalent, so we may as well be consistent

contra: (alums implicit in "chapter members")

mllerustad: gavinbaker: Not necessarily, though...

mllerustad: What if you're an alum from a chapter that doesn't define alums as members?

gavinbaker: mllerustad: well, that'd be consistent, in that you couldn't nominate, either

gavinbaker: you'd be excluded from both

mllerustad: Should you not be allowed from running (assuming someone else thought you were good enough to nominate)?

gavinbaker: if you went somewhere else, you'd be included in both

gavinbaker: why would it make sense to not be allowed to nominate yourself, but to be elected?

contra: I think the idea is that you should still have some chapter affiliation to be a major part of the organization?

mllerustad: It means that any board members that happened to be from a chapter that didn't count alumni would be forced out when they graduated, despite previous service and so forth...

contra: and if the chapter doesn't want you (for some odd reason), then you can't really be involved in a "student" movement?

mllerustad: Seems like it would lead to very high turnover.

skyfaller: wait

gavinbaker: i'll say again, i think the way we dealt with nominations is dumb, but it seems to make sense to be consistent

mllerustad: Especially since most people only get active at that level their junior or senior year.

skyfaller: but we left in the current board members provision, no?

mllerustad: are we?

skyfaller: so current board members can run again?

gavinbaker: skyfaller: right, current board members would be allowed to stand for election

gavinbaker: regardless of the chapter member bit

mllerustad: But once they lose, they're gone for good.

gavinbaker: so the concern about turnover is moot... right, unless they lose or don't run again

contra: frankly, I think the turnover will be pretty quick anyway.

contra: burnout and nerds, you know how it is :)

mllerustad: Heh.

gavinbaker: yeah

gavinbaker: i was thinking, FC.o volunteers are like pancakes:

gavinbaker: take them out of the ban before they burn

gavinbaker: *pan


 * Signoff: e-star

mllerustad: Mm.

contra: that's why I think when a member burns out, he should be expected to set himself on fire in DC.

gavinbaker: cue paulproteus to say something about foot

contra: "Another freedom fighter burns out."

gavinbaker: *food

contra: we'd make some progress

gavinbaker: contra: or kamikaze @ RIAA

mllerustad: *FC.o average life expectancy drops to 23*

gavinbaker: and i'll stop making jokes about terrorism

contra: I don't want to hurt anyone else, I'm a pacifist. :)

contra: but setting myself on fire, sure

gavinbaker: so are we using the same definition from nominations?

mllerustad: I'm not sure I think it's the best, but I'll run with it.

mllerustad: We can fix it later if it's necessary.

gavinbaker: frankly, i think this should be amended anyway, so there's no difference between fixing 2 sectons and fixing 1

contra: I think it's fine to limit to members of chapters and current board members

contra: it's logical

skyfaller: it sounds good to me

conley: School starts on monday. How do I get access to vt.freeculture.org so I can mess with the homepage

gavinbaker: conley, set paulproteus on fire


 * conley sets paulproteus on fire

gavinbaker: so, RESOLVED

contra: oh, yeah

gavinbaker: line 4 = Members of any chapter (as defined by the chapter) and current members of the board of directors shall be eligible to stand for election to the board. There is no limit to the number of terms that a person may serve on the board.

contra: skyfaller: Swat's blog!

gavinbaker: conley: if that doesn't work, set skyfaller on fire

gavinbaker: and just keep going 'til it works

contra: he's already burnt to a crisp...


 * conley sets skyfaller on fire

conley: I'm running out of matches

conley: Got to go

gavinbaker: d'oh


 * conley runs out to buy more matches


 * conley has left channel &#35;freeculture

gavinbaker: +1 for line 4? yes?

contra: +1

mllerustad: +1

gavinbaker: woohoo

skyfaller: +1

contra: how much is left?


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skyfaller: contra, conley... we'll have to meet sometime to talk web stuff... would you be available this Sunday?

skyfaller: PM me

contra: hmm

contra: Sunday night, maybe?

contra: Sunday afternoons I feed homeless people, hence I've missed almost every IRC meeting

skyfaller: (PM me, don't talk in the channel)

skyfaller: (there's a bylaws meeting on now)

gavinbaker: ok... line 5 -- last line!

gavinbaker: The executive director is responsible for running the election.

gavinbaker: so ED = Coordinator

skyfaller: good start

mllerustad: The Coordinator is responsible for announcing the election and finding a third party to run it?

gavinbaker: i think we can add "per V.2." since we spelled out the procedure there

gavinbaker: iirc

skyfaller: mllerustad: that sounds like a better idea...

gavinbaker: which i can't double-check, because we haven't rolled those changes into RC2

gavinbaker: skyfaller, mllerustad, we already decided that, i THINK

skyfaller: oh, what did we decide?

gavinbaker: it SHOULD be in the Coordinator section

mllerustad: Yeah, I thought we did too.

mllerustad: But I couldn't remember for sure.

gavinbaker: but those changes haven't been rolled into RC2

gavinbaker: mllerustad: it'd be super helpful if you could add the notes that you have to wiki, and even implement them in RC2

mllerustad: gavinbaker: I've added everything I took notes on.

mllerustad: The problem is there are a lot of meetings/parts of meetings that I don't have notes for, and that no one else took notes for.

gavinbaker: oh, scheisse.

gavinbaker: life--

contra: wait, so somewhere running the election is detailed, because "responsible for running the election" is too vague

contra: ?

mllerustad: I went through a couple logs and added a few changes, but most of the unnoted meetings' resolutions aren't merged yet.


 * e-star (n=e-star@61.8.222.2) has joined channel &#35;freeculture

gavinbaker: contra: yeah we specified this

gavinbaker: it's just... not easily findable

gavinbaker: it's in the logs

gavinbaker: but where is the question


 * mllerustad wonders why no one else took notes

contra: gavinbaker: I'm satisfied, then.

contra: I trust the wisdom of the IRC crowd

mllerustad: :)

gavinbaker: i don't like the fact that i can't find it in the logs, though

mllerustad: Can we just rewrite language for what we want the Coordinator to do, and merge it/cross-reference it later?

mllerustad: Then we *know* it's in the logs, and agreed upon.

gavinbaker: oh here it is, i think

mllerustad: Oh?

gavinbaker: http://wiki.freeculture.org/2007-08-08/log

gavinbaker: "The Coordinator is responsible for announcing elections for the board of directors and determining a deadline for voting. The Coordinator will appoint an external third party to tally votes and submit results to the board and the Coordinator; the Coordinator shall notify the Organization of the results."

gavinbaker: so we can just include by reference

skyfaller: mllerustad: wanna take minutes for the rest of this meeting? ;-)

mllerustad: :p

mllerustad: I wasn't here for most of it...

contra: good

skyfaller: you can just start taking minutes now, and we can go back to the log later

skyfaller: but anyway

skyfaller: gavinbaker: um, doesn't that conflict with what we just decided for interim elections?

skyfaller: "determining a deadline for voting"

skyfaller: well, I guess it doesn't

skyfaller: the Coordinator's decision just has to be >14 days

gavinbaker: skyfaller: no

gavinbaker: the Coordinator determines the *deadline*

gavinbaker: that's the end date

skyfaller: buh?

gavinbaker: so you count backwards from there, for the rest of the timeline

skyfaller: wait

gavinbaker: i.e. if voting is open for 14 days

gavinbaker: the Coordinator picks the END date

gavinbaker: so you subtract 14 to determine when voting begins

gavinbaker: math ftw

skyfaller: OK, let me start over

skyfaller: we've said that nominations must last at least 14 days

skyfaller: and the polls must be open for at least 14 days, right?

gavinbaker: yes

gavinbaker: the Coordinator can't choose an end date that conflicts with the rest of the timeline

skyfaller: so the coordinator decides how long it lasts beyond 14 days

gavinbaker: and frankly i think the part about the Coordinator was intended for the regular elections

gavinbaker: which happen roughly annually

gavinbaker: but the Coordinator is free to choose the exact date

gavinbaker: per the rest of the timeline we decided for regular elections

skyfaller: ok

gavinbaker: which we probably didn't actually decide, but we're believing that we decided it for the time being

skyfaller: ...

gavinbaker: until we discover we didn't, because we REALLY can't find it in the log, and we have to actually decide it

skyfaller: I think since we're thinking about it now, we should try to make the two places consistent?

gavinbaker: what if we already decided and we're just dumb and can't find it?

gavinbaker: that would be silly

skyfaller: where was this other language from?

skyfaller: when were we talking about it, if not board elections?


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gavinbaker: well we've discussed board elections previously

gavinbaker: e.g. last meeting

skyfaller: OK, so it would have to be from last meeting?

gavinbaker: well

gavinbaker: we might have discussed it previously

gavinbaker: who knows?

skyfaller: .... actually, we must have discussed it previously

gavinbaker: i'm content to continue pretend we decided it, until we look and see

skyfaller: if that language is from the 8th

gavinbaker: if we find that we DIDN'T, then we'll fix it then

gavinbaker: skyfaller: that's no guarantee it happened

gavinbaker: just because it would have been logical to decide it then

gavinbaker: it would have LOGICAL for like, almost all of this stuff to have been in the first draft

gavinbaker: if you've been at these meetings you know that logic has been a force in weak operation

skyfaller: I really don't think we decided it, and we should make some decision now while we're thinking about it, so that we don't have to have yet another meeting b/c we never decided this

skyfaller: I really don't remember ever setting a specific timeline for elections

gavinbaker: skyfaller: i think we're going to need another meeting anyway

skyfaller: we were just leaving it up to the Coordinator, it seems to me from the minutes

skyfaller: ... I mean another meeting about RC1 :P

gavinbaker: well, we're clearly going to need at least 1 more meeting before RC2 goes out for voting

gavinbaker: if only to check that all these changes were rolled in properly

skyfaller: OK, but can't we talk about this now? I'm 90% sure that we we never set any sort of timeline for elections

gavinbaker: and as a final check that there wasn't something that was missed

gavinbaker: skyfaller: why not just wait until we're 100% sure? we have to wait anyway

gavinbaker: and we can decide stuff we're sure about now

skyfaller: I dunno, it just seems dumb to come back to this later after we've stopped thinking about it

skyfaller: but ok

skyfaller: so are we resolving anything?

gavinbaker: RESOLVED: "The Coordinator is responsible for running the election, per V.2."

skyfaller: I really really really don't think we set a timeline, and we just left the whole decision in the hands of the Coordinator, for the record

gavinbaker: skyfaller: i don't think we ever talked about it, and it shouldn't be left in the hands of the Coordinator, but we'll wait until we review the logs and find out

gavinbaker: resolution time ^^ mllerustad, contra, whoever

contra: +1

contra: I trust the coordinator

skyfaller: I don't really know what that means, so I'm not sure how we can resolve that

contra: after all, he IS the Executive Director

contra: it means that at least somewhere election protocol is outlined, and that protocol can always be amended.

contra: ?

contra: (? = perhaps)

gavinbaker: skyfaller: anything else that needs to be decided will be decided later

gavinbaker: if it hasn't been already

mllerustad: isn't this "later">

mllerustad: ?

gavinbaker: mllerustad: later = when we've actually gone through the logs and we're sure

mllerustad: Mm.

skyfaller: I still think it would be better to make some decision now... we can just decide "this overrules previous decisions"

skyfaller: or "previous decisions overrule this decision"

skyfaller: the former probably makes more sense

gavinbaker: skyfaller: the question is, is there something better we should be doing now?

gavinbaker: there are all these comments to go through

gavinbaker: and these old RESOLUTIONS that were never implemented

skyfaller: ok

skyfaller: I don't like leaving things unfinished, b/c I know we'll just have to do it later

skyfaller: but let's move on

gavinbaker: and all the RESOLUTIONS in the logs that never implemented

skyfaller: what's next?

gavinbaker: if we RESOLVE this then we're done with the first run through RC1

skyfaller: fine +1 to referring to a part of the bylaws that may or may not be complete


 * contra gets the champagne

skyfaller: and going back and looking more carefully later

contra: are we SURE that something was resolved for V.2?

skyfaller: no

skyfaller: we're not

contra: wonderful...

skyfaller: but I guess we're moving on anyway

gavinbaker: RESOLVED: make sure we have a timeline for regular board elections

gavinbaker: k?

contra: +1

contra: :)

skyfaller: +1

skyfaller: moving on

gavinbaker: so, champagne time

gavinbaker: ok, champagne's over

skyfaller: are we gonna end the meeting?

skyfaller: or move on to the comments?

gavinbaker: well, we have to review the comments, somehow

gavinbaker: and there's the work of implementing what we've RESOLVED

gavinbaker: including digging through the logs

gavinbaker: and writing implementations where we decided on a principle but not on the language

gavinbaker: making sure everything is rolled in

gavinbaker: then a final check

gavinbaker: then it goes out for votes

gavinbaker: how do we want to do that stuff

gavinbaker: ?

skyfaller: more meetings? :/

skyfaller: I think the comments probably require meetings

gavinbaker: i don't think meetings are the right way to go through the logs and write implementations

skyfaller: merging stuff that we've already resolved can be done on our own time, if we actually do it

gavinbaker: we need a meeting to discuss the comments

gavinbaker: and a meeting for the final check

skyfaller: agreed

gavinbaker: skyfaller: yeah, to that end, i want to assign things

contra: comments?

gavinbaker: rather than just say "hope someone does this"

skyfaller: well, Karen has been merging a lot of the resolutions so far... mllerustad, how do you think this should work?

gavinbaker: at the least we'll need to schedule another meeting

gavinbaker: and i'm afk for the next week so don't worry about my availability (but also don't expect me to be there)

skyfaller: I'm kind of running out of time too :(

skyfaller: I won't be able to do any of this stuff once my school starts

contra: you should crowdsource it

contra: (bad joke)

skyfaller: I can run one more meeting on Sunday or Monday to cover the comments

gavinbaker: the comments are massive

gavinbaker: unless the meeting blazes it'll take like, hours and hours

skyfaller: I guess some of the comments will get short shrift, then

skyfaller: b/c we need bylaws, and I don't think they'll get done if we don't get a draft out soon

skyfaller: I don't think anyone will have time for them once school starts

contra: what exactly are the comments?

skyfaller: my classes start on Weds

gavinbaker: contra: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Talk:Bylaws

contra: uh-oh

gavinbaker: some of those are like, important

gavinbaker: others are not

contra: most of those would require quite a bit of re-writing of the bylaws ;-)

gavinbaker: contra: yeah

contra: this is an RC

gavinbaker: i expect most of them to get overruled

contra: you can't re-write anything

gavinbaker: you can re-write anything, but you shouldn't re-write everything

gavinbaker: besides, we've discussed everything in the bylaws

contra: like, I'm serious. You need to ratify the bylaws generally as-is, and then stuff can be amended after the elections

skyfaller: contra: I generally agree

gavinbaker: if we've come to decisions contrary to a comment, we'd overrule the comment

gavinbaker: contra: well some of the comments are like, REALLY important

gavinbaker: like what happens if there's no Coordinator

skyfaller: but yeah, there are some clear exceptions that have to be made

contra: why wasn't this already incorporated? Not to criticize the (honestly) fine job you guys are doing, but you basically set yourself up for two re-writes

skyfaller: b/c we came up with some stuff after RC 1 was released

skyfaller: sadly

gavinbaker: contra: nobody was paying attention until we released RC1

gavinbaker: RC1 really wasn't ready to be a release candidate

gavinbaker: but a.) we thought it was

gavinbaker: and b.) we needed to get the ball rolling anyway

gavinbaker: now the ball's rolling, it's taken awhile, but there's no faster way

contra: well

contra: good luck, but I would pretty much ignore most of the comments at this stage

gavinbaker: contra: i agree

gavinbaker: i'm not sure how that will work with the "consensus" model

gavinbaker: but i guess if nobody who shows up wants to waste time

gavinbaker: then it will work well

skyfaller: alright, so Karen and I will work on merging in the Resolutions

skyfaller: well, I guess I need to ask Karen if she's still up for that (mllerustad?), but I assume that she is

skyfaller: and let's have a meeting to discuss the comments on Monday night

gavinbaker: what's the schedule

gavinbaker: to get this to a vote

gavinbaker: i see at least 2 more meetings

gavinbaker: at least 1 to discuss the comments

gavinbaker: and 1 to review the changes and a final check


 * gavinbaker really wishes we'd been documenting this thoroughly on the wiki as we went along

contra: can we resolve to have an almost-complete RC by September 1 (when semesters are going to be starting)? I mean, even if we don't consider the bylaws "done", voting needs to take place soon after the semester starts

gavinbaker: i guess nobody thought this would last like, 3 weeks

skyfaller: Alright, meeting to discuss the comments on Monday night

gavinbaker: oh god, voting has to start by at least sept. 1

gavinbaker: any later is way too late

contra: when is chapter registration going to start?

skyfaller: all resolutions are merged by Weds

gavinbaker: contra: it can start whenever

gavinbaker: somebody just has to start it

skyfaller: it should really start now

gavinbaker: i don't know who decides that

contra: it should

contra: whoever runs the web form (or whatever) for it?

gavinbaker: goddamn i hate this organization (or lack of)

contra: (P.S. I can't attend Monday's meeting. Homeless people again. It's a Sunday & Monday thing.)

contra: gavinbaker: fine, then you can't run for the board!

contra: :P

skyfaller: contra: that's fine, we'll look at your comments at least a little bit ;-)

gavinbaker: contra: thanks for that reprieve!

skyfaller: All resolutions merged by Tuesday night, actually

contra: consensus is worth considering. It lends itself to an organization with high burnout, because it basically says that if you show up, you matter, otherwise you don't.

contra: (but not in a threatening way)

skyfaller: I won't be doing anything significant on the bylaws from Weds onwards

gavinbaker: contra: the goal should really be to prevent & triage burnout

contra: skyfaller: good luck with classes, by the way

contra: gavinbaker: well, burnout occurs in every organization. If you stay in too long, you get corrupt anyway

skyfaller: So we'll schedule a final meeting to clean up and release RC2 for ratification after that... let's say two weekends from now

contra: I won't preach about consensus much now. It would require a significant re-write of the bylaws. Though I admit doing it before the bylaws get ratified is the right time for such an ideological decision

gavinbaker: skyfaller: i was going to say, i think 26 Aug is a reasonable date to aim for release

skyfaller: assume the

contra: so two weekends from now the RC gets sent to chapters for ratification?

skyfaller: bylaws are ratified by the next weekend, Sept 1st

skyfaller: then we start nominations, and then elections

contra: good deadline.

gavinbaker: skyfaller: i suppose that means that 26 Aug is the date of the doublecheck meeting?

contra: +1?

skyfaller: yeah

skyfaller: and anyone who wants to make significant changes at that point will get stabbed in the face

contra: set on fire

contra: we'd really shake things up

mllerustad: sorry, skyfaller, yeah I'll help merge things.

skyfaller: contra: are your feelings on consensus reflected in your comments?

skyfaller: on the bylaws?

contra: OK, I have to head out again. Good luck, all.

gavinbaker: skyfaller: yeah they're there

gavinbaker: contra: cya

contra: uh, I think I basically said that they should be looked into

skyfaller: ok, then don't worry about it

skyfaller: it'll be looked into

gavinbaker: so... i'm fine with this schedule, though i wish it could be sooner, but i don't think it can be.

contra: I'm pretty cynical about my ability to convince people on ideological matters

gavinbaker: if we're going to use this schedule, we should firmly RESOLVE it now

gavinbaker: and immediately announce it

skyfaller: alright, let's resolve it

gavinbaker: & all agree to stick to it

gavinbaker: no matter what

gavinbaker: i.e. we will make it work

contra: but in short, consensus voting basically means everyone present has to agree, or it can't be resolved

skyfaller: RESOLVED: Meeting Monday night (8pm EDT?) to walk through the comments

contra: ok, I may be able to come late to the meeting.

gavinbaker: skyfaller: and the doublecheck meeting on 26 Aug?

contra: goodnight


 * Signoff: contra

skyfaller: RESOLVED: Meeting Sunday August 26th to doublecheck the bylaws and catch silly errors... no major changes to be made then

gavinbaker: that means you HAVE to finish the comments on the 20th

gavinbaker: or else schedule follow-up meetings before the 26th

gavinbaker: i.e. do NOT reschedule the 26th

skyfaller: I won't be scheduling follow-up meetings, I intend to finish the comments on the 20th

gavinbaker: nothing comes after the 26th -- it's finito

skyfaller: RESOLVED: The vast majority of our chapters should be registered by August 26th, so that they can ratify the bylaws

skyfaller: RESOLVED: Deadline for ratification of the bylaws is Sept 1st.

gavinbaker: well, deadline for voting

gavinbaker: right so when is rereg opening?

skyfaller: erm, Sunday Sept 2nd

skyfaller: gavinbaker: ASAP, I guess as soon as I can get around to it :/

gavinbaker: let's say midnight Sept 2, for clarity

gavinbaker: we can go midnight PDT if we want to be nice

gavinbaker: skyfaller: oh is it "decided" then to open re-reg?

skyfaller: gavinbaker: fine, midnight PDT Sunday Sept 2nd

gavinbaker: for the record the only thing necessary to open re-reg is to email a link to chapters

gavinbaker: and say "re-register if you want shit"

skyfaller: gavinbaker: yeah, I haven't looked at it yes, but I'll look at the form tonight and mail out the links once everything is to my satisfaction

skyfaller: RESOLVED: Nominations for the board will start once the bylaws are ratified, i.e. midnight Sunday Sept 2nd

gavinbaker: skyfaller: it will be to your satisfaction, because it's Done.

gavinbaker: skyfaller: well

gavinbaker: you don't know that that the bylaws will be ratified

gavinbaker: we should say like, the results will be announced by midnight the 3rd

skyfaller: gavinbaker: some of the fields for entering in information may need tweaking, but I'm sure the system is fine

gavinbaker: at which time, if they've been ratified, nominations will open

skyfaller: sure

gavinbaker: skyfaller: just don't fucking tweak it, and release it...

skyfaller: gavinbaker: well, I need to make sure that it's giving me everything I need for shipping etc.

skyfaller: but I'm sure that the system as a whole is fine

gavinbaker: skyfaller: it does

skyfaller: RESOLVED: Nominations will close one week after they start, and the polls will then open, also for one week. At that point we'll have a new board. by this schedule, that gives us a new board by Sept 16th or so

gavinbaker: this is so pwnt

gavinbaker: but there's no better way

gavinbaker: actually

skyfaller: that's a little late, but that should be early enough for them to give us a good start to the new school year

gavinbaker: by that point we're in the school year

gavinbaker: you should make nom & voting longer

gavinbaker: because you know people won't be paying attention

gavinbaker: so give them more time to participate

gavinbaker: 2 or 3 weeks for each

skyfaller: well, who will be running the org until then? we need a board ASAP

skyfaller: otherwise everything falls on my shoulders

skyfaller: I can just walk away, but then none of this will get done

gavinbaker: skyfaller: just ship the stuff

gavinbaker: what else is there to do, that gets done currently?

gavinbaker: nothing, nothing else really gets done

skyfaller: you don't think that's problematic?

skyfaller: I think that if we heavily publicize the schedule, people can be prepared for the nominations and elections

skyfaller: and you won't need to drag them out that long

gavinbaker: i still don't think either should be less than 2 weeks

skyfaller: OK, fine, 2 weeeks

gavinbaker: what if a chapter wants to meet to talk about its vote?

gavinbaker: and they only meet biweekly?

skyfaller: that gives us a board by Sept 30th

skyfaller: two weeks for nominations, two weeks for elections

gavinbaker: yeah i think that's reasonable

gavinbaker: ugh i can so tired of this

gavinbaker: i hope you guys wrap this stuff up while i'm away

gavinbaker: because i've reached my limit of caring


 * Signoff: jli (Remote closed the connection)

skyfaller: gavinbaker: I hope that you can help manage these elections and stuff, b/c I'll be busy with law school :P

gavinbaker: what has to be managed?

skyfaller: my contributions will more or less come to a halt on Weds, so whatever needs to be done that nobody is doing :P

skyfaller: I don't know what that will be, the future is unpredictable

gavinbaker: i'm pretty much not interested in doing any more stuff like this

skyfaller: neither is anyone else, I'm betting

skyfaller: this is why we need a board ASAP

skyfaller: well, this will be interesting...


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gavinbaker: well

gavinbaker: i don't remember anything we just decided

gavinbaker: but i also no longer care, sadly

gavinbaker: so, um, good luck?

skyfaller: I guess this is where the whole process falls apart b/c nobody cares anymore :P

gavinbaker: that's why it has to finish soon

gavinbaker: before eveyrone commits seppuku

skyfaller: well, I just said what I'm taking responsibility for finishing

skyfaller: I'll deliver a bylaws draft by Weds

skyfaller: after merging in the resolutions + comments

skyfaller: everything after that is going to have to be in other people's hands

gavinbaker: well, and shipping stuff

gavinbaker: paulproteus said he'd make the election system work

skyfaller: that's good to hear

gavinbaker: if the schedule is publicized in advance, then stuff should just sort of happen

skyfaller: well, I was specifically referring to bylaws + elections stuff

gavinbaker: i know it won't but i can always hope

skyfaller: things don't just happen, someone makes them happen

skyfaller: if the deadline for ratifications passes, and nobody counts the votes and announces the result, then the deadline is a failure

skyfaller: someone is going to have to do that

skyfaller: and I don't plan on it being me

skyfaller: I'll start to get violent at that point

skyfaller: so if it's not you, and it's not me, then it's... who? the remaining ghost board members?

skyfaller: things start getting fuzzy

skyfaller: I'm not very happy about this process lasting into the school year


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jibot: Scudmissile is Andy at the University of Evansville, Indiana. He is majoring in Internet Technology and is passionate about music and the presentation of information.

Scudmissil: oh, jibot is back

skyfaller: hooray for jibot!

Scudmissil: yay

skyfaller: well, I guess that's it


 * ScudmissilH    0    n=Scudmiss@74-137-222-218.dhcp.insightbb.com Andy


 * jli      H     0            i=jli@gateway/tor/x-423de2fef86cbaa0 Jli


 * e-star   H     0                             n=e-star@61.8.222.2 elizabeth


 * tannewt  H     0                n=scott@gentoo/developer/tannewt Unknown


 * mllerustadH    0  n=mllerust@c-75-73-208-193.hsd1.mn.comcast.net Karen Rustad


 * mindspillaH    0                 n=kat@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001 kat


 * skyfallertH    0                  i=[U2FsdGV@centaur.acm.jhu.edu [458fb33a] CGI:IRC User


 * gavinbakerH    0     n=gavin@c-69-143-179-58.hsd1.va.comcast.net Gavin Baker


 * ryanfaermaH    0        n=ryanfaer@crlspr-69.65.71.237.myacc.net Ryan Faerman


 * Yaco2    H     0                         n=Yaco2@201.255.252.202 Yaco2


 * Omnifrog H     0  n=Omnifrog@c-68-60-206-179.hsd1.tn.comcast.net Omnifrog


 * peabo    H     0     n=peabo@c-24-147-25-140.hsd1.ma.comcast.net Peter Olson


 * Lam_     H     0        n=Lam@246-200.127-70.tampabay.res.rr.com Lam


 * mark007  H     0n=mark007@pool-71-101-200-240.tampfl.dsl-w.veriz Mark


 * ftobia   H     0       n=chatzill@ool-18bb9b30.dyn.optonline.net Frank Tobia


 * skyfaller H    0                    n=nelson@wikipedia/Skyfaller Nelson Pavlosky


 * danjared H     0                  n=danjared@VINEGAR-POT.MIT.EDU D. Jared Dominguez


 * K`Tetch  H     0n=ktetch@adsl-074-166-105-206.sip.asm.bellsouth. K`Tetch


 * johnsu01 H     0                       n=user@fsf/staff/johnsu01 John Sullivan (http://www.wjsullivan.net)


 * klepas   G     0                    n=klepas@unaffiliated/klepas Pascal Klein


 * jibot    H     0                            i=andy@83.145.232.84 #JoiIto's bot


 * sahal    G     0             i=hobo@outbound.silenceisdefeat.org can't get enough of that sugarcrisp...


 * _sj_     H     0                               n=sj@wikipedia/sj sjk


 * [autonomy]H    0 n=autonomy@c-71-232-117-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net auto


 * paulproteuG    0           i=paulprot@29.145.221.202.bf.2iij.net Asheesh Laroia


 * poningru H     0        n=poningru@ip72-209-65-174.ga.at.cox.net Eldo Varghese


 * &#35;freeculture End of /WHO list.

skyfaller: I'll post the new timeline to the blog and stuff

skyfaller: is Monday at 8pm EDT fine for everyone who is paying attention?


 * peabo: (back to keyboard) hey, did I miss anything good? :-)

skyfaller: not really


 * Signoff: jli (Remote closed the connection)

gavinbaker: i'm leaving the channel so i won't think about this anymore

gavinbaker: good luck!

gavinbaker: may the force be with you, etc.


 * Signoff: gavinbaker ("Leaving")

skyfallert: peabo: can you log this channel on Monday at 8pm EDT?


 * peabo: sure

skyfallert: alright

skyfallert: I guess that's all the attendance I'm going to get at this comments meeting


 * peabo: tonight log started at 5 PM, so I'll send that to Gavin as well


 * peabo: so there is another eeting (I should go read the log I guess :-)

skyfallert: so in the absence of other input, I declare the bylaws comments meeting to be on Monday at 8pm EDT

Scudmissil: ok


 * peabo: skyfaller, you're going to need a 15 seconds rule to go through the comments in one meetinmg!


 * Signoff: mark007 ("leaving")


 * peabo: well, I gotta go, see you Monday

Log file closed at: 8/16/07 11:22:15 PM