Archive:2007-02-28/Log

[7:05p] paulproteus: Anyway, web team meeting, let's go! [7:07p] skyfaller: w00t! [7:09p] skyfaller: paulproteus: I think we might be the only ones here [7:09p] paulproteus: I'm sort of okay with that. [7:09p] paulproteus: Long day.... [7:09p] oday_ left the chat room. (Remote closed the connection) [7:09p] paulproteus: Hah, bye oday. [7:09p] paulproteus: Well, we could set the agenda. [7:09p] skyfaller: ok [7:10p] _sj_ joined the chat room. [7:10p] jibot: _sj_ is modally in Cambridge, MA & a regenerate wikipedaholic & blogs at tinyurl.com/bq12 & a cyborg-eating kitten & ourobourable [7:10p] oday_ joined the chat room. [7:10p] skyfaller: the 3 things I'm interested in right now are (1) an IRC web portal, (2) Wordpress MU (3) a wiki farm [7:12p] paulproteus: And the 3 things I'm interested in are (1) sleep, (2) having this homework be done, and (3) reading _The Cider House Rules_. [7:12p] skyfaller: heh :) [7:12p] paulproteus: Now that we've discussed this, let's meet in the middle. [7:12p] paulproteus: (-; [7:12p] paulproteus: Okay, so CGI::IRC. [7:12p] skyfaller: OK, can you give me the IRC portal tonight, and can we discuss how we might implement the other things / plan how to do them? [7:13p] paulproteus: I was going to go one further and suggest you do the IRC portal. [7:13p] paulproteus: We could in fact just use uf.freeculture.org's! [7:13p] skyfaller: paulproteus: they're using an external one which broke [7:13p] paulproteus: Oh. [7:13p] paulproteus: I see. [7:13p] â€¢ paulproteus sighs [7:13p] mllerustad joined the chat room. [7:13p] jibot: mllerustad is a music nerd and Karen Rustad and a student at Scripps College in Claremont, CA and on FreeCulture.org's board [7:13p] paulproteus: Well, CGI::IRC is definitely useful. [7:14p] paulproteus: skyfaller, Let me see about CGI::IRC right now. [7:15p] paulproteus: I think putting a link on http://freeculture.org/contact.php underneath the IRC channel link makes sense. [7:15p] skyfaller: paulproteus: actually UF's method of putting it in the sidebar is genius [7:15p] skyfaller: but there's no reason we can't have multiple links [7:15p] paulproteus: skyfaller, Tell you what: you make the HTML forms and stuff, and I'll make the backend and stuff. [7:16p] paulproteus: Right now, I'm not in a very "Think like the user" mood. [7:16p] skyfaller: paulproteus: yeah, just get the actual software up and running, and I'll make all the hooks in our website [7:17p] skyfaller: paulproteus: what do you think of allowing people to visit any channel on freenode vs. restricting them to #freeculture? [7:17p] paulproteus: There are enough CGI::IRC things already that I think that should be okay. [7:17p] paulproteus: Starting them out in #freeculture makes sense. [7:18p] skyfaller: paulproteus: defaulting to #freeculture and allowing *only* #freeculture are two diff things [7:18p] paulproteus: Precisely, and I say the first is good enough. [7:18p] skyfaller: ok [7:19p] oday_: anyone else want to help find bug hunt on freemusic.freeculture.org? [7:20p] skyfaller: oday_: maybe later, we need to get through a few other things first [7:21p] tannewt left the chat room. ("Leaving") [7:24p] grahl joined the chat room. [7:24p] jibot: grahl is Jan Hendrik Grahl. He is the treasurer for Florida Free Culture and an international student at the University of Florida. He doesn't post enough on his blog http://grahli.net [7:28p] freeculture_gues joined the chat room. [7:28p] mllerustad left the chat room. [7:28p] freeculture_gues: What happens when you put a geek in front of a web browser? [7:28p] freeculture_gues: He figures out how to get IRC! [7:29p] freeculture_gues left the chat room. (Client Quit) [7:29p] skyfaller: LOL! [7:29p] paulproteus: http://freeculture.org/cgi-bin/cgiirc/irc.cgi [7:29p] skyfaller: w00t! [7:29p] w00tzor joined the chat room. [7:29p] paulproteus: â€¢ paulproteus grins [7:30p] w00tzor: w00tziness [7:30p] w00tzor: hm... things are behaving a little weird [7:30p] w00tzor: I saw my message after yours [7:31p] w00tzor: but it seems to be OK now, the delay went away [7:31p] fco_guest01 joined the chat room. [7:31p] paulproteus: I just fixed images. [7:31p] fco_guest01: I mean to say, I just fixed images. [7:31p] w00tzor left the chat room. (Client Quit) [7:31p] w00tzor joined the chat room. [7:31p] fco_guest01: Anyway, the IRC protocol doesn't guarantee ordering. [7:31p] fco_guest01: (Look in the upper-right corner.) [7:31p] w00tzor: yeah, order isn't important [7:31p] w00tzor: oh, thank you for fixing the images! [7:31p] fco_guest01: I wonder if I should get Joi to set the reverse DNS to something more interesting. [7:32p] w00tzor: I'm sure that was what was causing the delay [7:32p] fco_guest01: I think we'll be changing IPs in a short while anyway. [7:32p] skyfaller: reverse DNS? [7:32p] w00tzor left the chat room. (Client Quit) [7:32p] fco_guest01: *** w00tzor [n=4cabd1ed@30.145.221.202.bf.2iij.net] has joined #freeculture [7:32p] skyfaller: ah :) [7:33p] fco_guest01: See, it'd be nice if it said w00tzor [n=something@freakculture.org]. [7:33p] paulproteus: skyfaller, Does that cover what you need? [7:33p] paulproteus: I presume you'd just make a separate that POSTs to the same thing this one does. [7:33p] paulproteus: (Is there a bug for this?) [7:34p] skyfaller: paulproteus: yes, there is a bug, and yes, I think this closes it [7:34p] fco_guest01: URL? [7:34p] fco_guest01: Never mind, got it. [7:34p] skyfaller: now I'm going to test it out by trying to change UF's IRC thingie to point at this [7:35p] paulproteus: You have access to their web server!? [7:35p] skyfaller: paulproteus: no, just their Wordpress install [7:35p] paulproteus: Oh, hah. [7:36p] fco_guest01: Good enough for me, I suppose. [7:36p] fco_guest01: I updated https://launchpad.net/web/+bug/88799 . [7:36p] fco_guest01: There's something eerily reasonable about using IRC in a web browser if I'm mostly switching between web apps anyway. [7:37p] skyfaller: heh :) [7:37p] fco_guest01: Like, getting that URL was easier than normal: Ctrl-tab, Ctrl-C, Ctrl-Shift-Tab, Ctrl-V. [7:37p] fco_guest01: Usually it involves looking and clicking. [7:37p] skyfaller: :) [7:37p] berkman left the chat room. [7:38p] paulproteus: skyfaller, Okay, while you do that, I'll think about the web hosting. [7:39p] paulproteus: There's no reason we couldn't offer "full-service" web hosting, shell accounts and everything, except my time, I think. [7:39p] skyfaller: dammit, the information isn't contained in the Wordpress theme, so I can't change it... neither can I download their script [7:39p] paulproteus: Just use their HTML. [7:39p] paulproteus:  [7:39p] skyfaller: I know, I also wanted to update their borked form :( [7:40p] poningru joined the chat room. [7:40p] jibot: poningru is claims to be a descendent of the Earl of Curry [7:40p] paulproteus: poningru, Hey, you! [7:40p] skyfaller: poningru: do you have access to the FFC website? [7:41p] fco_guest01: poningru: skyfaller and I have been working on https://launchpad.net/web/+bug/88799, and we want to use it to fix uf.fc.o's broken CGI::IRC thing. [7:41p] fco_guest01: nile: Maybe you care, too. [7:41p] skyfaller: fco_guest01 = paulproteus [7:41p] fco_guest01: A likely story! [7:41p] skyfaller: grahl? do you have access to the FFC website? [7:41p] paulproteus: Anyway, skyfaller, can we talk about the farm stuff? [7:42p] skyfaller: paulproteus: yes, let us [7:42p] grahl: skyfaller: i do not [7:42p] paulproteus: â€¢ paulproteus grins at having IRC appear in two windows, both visible [7:42p] â€¢ paulproteus grins wider! [7:42p] grahl: skyfaller: any problems? i can call people to destroy the intarwebs [7:42p] skyfaller: man, so is JC really the only person with access? [7:42p] grahl: or at least gainesville [7:42p] paulproteus: skyfaller, Basically, how can we be most of use to chapters? [7:42p] skyfaller: grahl: your website is borked, I wanted to fix it [7:42p] paulproteus: And let's compromise that against how minimally I can have to do things. [7:43p] skyfaller: paulproteus: I don't think we need to give people full shell access and stuff [7:43p] skyfaller: I want to give each chapter a wiki, blog, and mailing list [7:43p] paulproteus: Is it okay with them if the wailing list is @fc.o rather than @them.fc.o? [7:44p] grahl: sadly, all members w/ commit access are drunk. i'm german so i'm still standing/sitting [7:44p] skyfaller: paulproteus: I'm sure it is [7:44p] skyfaller: it's just a question of whether it ever gets confusing or not [7:44p] skyfaller: e.g. if you have 40 "discuss" lists, one for each chapter [7:44p] paulproteus: â€¢ paulproteus grins [7:45p] skyfaller: what is the intelligent naming convention? [7:45p] paulproteus: Well, I hear on the Internet, there's this domain name system. [7:45p] paulproteus: I also don't think most users have as deep a grasp of the DNS as I do. [7:45p] skyfaller: grahl: good job being German :) Can you write down something for the others, so they can fix it when they're sober? [7:45p] paulproteus: grahl, Oh, was today the copynight? (-: [7:46p] grahl: skyfaller: that sounds like a challenge..but they could just delete it, so it wouldn't be as fun [7:46p] grahl: paulproteus: yes [7:46p] paulproteus: grahl, We're talking about fc.o offering (simple? limited?  full?) mailing list and web services to chapters. [7:46p] skyfaller: grahl: not sure what you're saying, but OK [7:47p] paulproteus: One question is, if we offer mailing lists, will it be confusing if people email $school-discuss@freeculture.org and are also on freeculture.org. [7:47p] grahl: paulproteus: are there really chapters who need that? [7:47p] paulproteus: grahl, skyfaller really think so, at least for web. [7:47p] skyfaller: mailing lists are more easy to get at schools [7:47p] grahl: the subdomains are quite sufficient, imo [7:48p] paulproteus: The subdomains are nice 'cause they're approximately no work for me. [7:48p] paulproteus: But skyfaller thinks we can offer more value. [7:48p] â€¢ paulproteus hands the microphone to skyfaller [7:48p] skyfaller: grahl: it's worth noting that your website is not hosted on campus, it is donated by a random alumn [7:49p] skyfaller: *the webspace is donated [7:49p] paulproteus: What if you don't have random alums? [7:49p] paulproteus: Then you rely on random *national* alums like me! [7:49p] skyfaller: exactly :) [7:49p] paulproteus: Or random strangers like wordpress.com or livejournal.com. [7:49p] skyfaller: paulproteus: Wordpress.com doesn't offer the plugins that I'd want, or wikis [7:50p] skyfaller: and LJ isn't as open source [7:50p] paulproteus: Agreed. [7:50p] grahl: isn't it more of a problem of not having enough chapters than infrastructure for them? [7:50p] skyfaller: grahl: not really, we have over 30 chapters [7:51p] skyfaller: many of them are just disorganized or insufficiently tech-savvy [7:51p] skyfaller: which I count as a victory, because that means they're not all uber-geeks, we're spreading out [7:51p] skyfaller: into other demographics [7:52p] grahl: it surely sounds good [7:52p] fco_guest01 left the chat room. ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") [7:52p] paulproteus: Oops. [7:52p] skyfaller: basically, I think uf.freeculture.org is a shining example of how a chapter website should be done, and I'd love to be able to offer every chapter something similar pre-packaged [7:52p] paulproteus: Oh, well. [7:53p] skyfaller: so we just hit a few buttons, and *poof* they have a website [7:53p] paulproteus: Let me think of how we could do it. [7:53p] skyfaller: maybe we could even build that into the chapter registration form! [7:53p] skyfaller: that would be genius [7:53p] paulproteus: That's just freaky. [7:53p] paulproteus: Symlinks to a shared mediawiki install. [7:53p] ryanfaerman joined the chat room. [7:53p] paulproteus: Lyceum would be easy to script to do this, too. [7:54p] paulproteus: I'd probably have to manually jab at the Apache config, but only in a trivial way. [7:54p] paulproteus: Right now, there are three different ways subdomains can be handled. [7:54p] skyfaller: paulproteus: I'll never understand why Lyceum is better than Wordpress MU, but if that's what you'll install for me and maintain / update then I won't complain [7:54p] paulproteus: â€¢ paulproteus grins [7:54p] paulproteus: I can try playing with Mu later. [7:54p] paulproteus: Every time I've tried it, it's been completely, utterly broken. [7:55p] â€¢ paulproteus ponders, Who knew I'd be in the web hosting business? [7:55p] skyfaller: do Wordpress plugins work on a per-blog basis in Lyceum? [7:55p] paulproteus: iirc you can enable them on a per-blog basis. [7:55p] paulproteus: Now I remember: Yes, they do, but you can also have system plugins, which are a separate thing. [7:55p] skyfaller: right [7:55p] skyfaller: same with WP MU [7:55p] skyfaller: just asking, b/c that's a key feature [7:56p] klepas joined the chat room. [7:56p] klepas left the chat room. (Client Quit) [7:56p] jibot: klepas is Pascal Klein, a pixel junkie-cross-college student who enjoys working on desktop artwork and writing words using free software tools. He currently resides in the bush-capital, Canberra, Australia and has a bit of a site at http://klepas.org and a shared one at http://journal.klepas.org [7:56p] skyfaller: ... that was a short visit [7:56p] paulproteus: Hah, thanks jibot. [7:57p] paulproteus: Ooh, with this I could cause more wikis to be created in the world with FancyCaptcha enabled by default. [7:57p] paulproteus: That makes me feel good. [7:57p] skyfaller: :) [7:57p] skyfaller: I'm not familiar with it... [7:58p] paulproteus: If you add more than (e.g.) 2 links to a mediawiki page, you get asked to solve a CAPTCHA. [7:58p] poningru left the chat room. (No route to host) [7:58p] paulproteus: And another one bites the dust. [7:58p] skyfaller: ah, interesting [7:58p] klepas joined the chat room. [7:59p] paulproteus: "another one" being poningru, not some spammer or something. [7:59p] skyfaller: ;) [7:59p] aphid: we're finally important enough to have regular trolls on the listserv [8:00p] paulproteus: Hey, aphid, if freeculture.org had offered your ucsc chapter hosting, would that have been nice? [8:01p] skyfaller: ... I think the UCSC chapter could still use hosting [8:01p] skyfaller: if they still exist [8:01p] aphid: yeah, probably. we ended up hosting on the metavid server, which was no big deal for us but not everyone in every chapter has their own on-campus linux box [8:01p] aphid: we had a meeting last week. half alumni but still a meeting :D [8:01p] skyfaller: http://ucsc.freeculture.org/ => error [8:01p] paulproteus: skyfaller, Oops, then I probably suck. [8:02p] paulproteus: skyfaller, Make a wiki page we'll call a specification, and then I'll change it to suit my plans and if we agree on it, I'll build it. [8:02p] paulproteus: And let's track this with a bug. That okay? [8:02p] paulproteus: This is a big project, and truly deserves using the tracker for once. [8:02p] skyfaller: paulproteus: doesn't it deserve multiple bugs? [8:02p] paulproteus: skyfaller, Well, let's track the spec with one bug. [8:02p] paulproteus: Unless it deserves more, in which case it'll get more... [8:02p] skyfaller: ok, sounds good [8:02p] skyfaller: what should the page be called? [8:03p] paulproteus: Hosting ? [8:03p] paulproteus: Linked-to from the Web team page. [8:03p] skyfaller: oh, I was just going to link from today's meeting [8:04p] paulproteus: God, I'm glad Mudbag still works. [8:04p] paulproteus: And I'm really glad no one except me is going to break it. [8:04p] skyfaller: :) [8:04p] paulproteus: skyfaller, http://santacruz.freeculture.org works btw. [8:05p] skyfaller: oh [8:05p] skyfaller: :) [8:05p] paulproteus: "works": lib/config.php:156: Notice: Undefined variable: accept [8:05p] paulproteus: God, this is one of those wikis where double-clicking edits. [8:05p] paulproteus: That always freaked me out. [8:05p] skyfaller: eek! [8:05p] skyfaller: sorry for the false alarm [8:05p] paulproteus: Anyway, that's all good, I just checked up on it. [8:06p] skyfaller: they still only have a wiki, not a blog [8:06p] skyfaller: and I'd like the wiki to spawn with some appropriate default pages [8:06p] skyfaller: to make it start out looking something like UF's wiki [8:07p] skyfaller: newbies will have no idea how they want to structure their wikis, so providing a default structure would help them tremendously [8:07p] paulproteus: Agreed. [8:08p] skyfaller: and prevent them from being disorganized crapholes, like wiki.fc.o :P [8:08p] paulproteus: Hah, very well... [8:08p] skyfaller: I'm seriously going to reboot our wiki someday and give it some real organization [8:08p] paulproteus: https://launchpad.net/web/+bug/88846 [8:09p] paulproteus: I should look into https://bugs.launchpad.net/web/nextmeeting/+bug/83823. [8:09p] skyfaller: grahl: is the calendar thingie on FFC's website actually useful to its members? [8:10p] skyfaller: paulproteus: actually I decided it was a dumb idea [8:10p] paulproteus: skyfaller, Oh, then say so and close it as wontfix! [8:10p] skyfaller: paulproteus: I think what I really want is a web interface to the IMAP server [8:10p] paulproteus: You're going to live with IMAP, or what? [8:10p] paulproteus: Right. [8:10p] skyfaller: paulproteus: the problem with POP/Gmail is that you can't see what has and hasn't been replied to (or read) [8:11p] paulproteus: Precisely. [8:11p] paulproteus: Glad you realized that too. [8:11p] paulproteus: Well, I can give you a webmail interface, but then there's the password flying around problem. [8:11p] skyfaller: what do you mean? [8:11p] paulproteus: I could give it SSL, but I couldn't give us a "trusted" SSL certificate without paying some money. [8:11p] paulproteus: $15 a year or something. [8:12p] grahl: isn't cacert enough for us geeks? [8:12p] skyfaller: paulproteus: actually, I guess if you could actually do that bug and forward things to Gmail, it wouldn't hurt to have that backup [8:12p] skyfaller: forward => copy [8:12p] paulproteus: skyfaller, /me nods re: forward => copy [8:12p] paulproteus: Do you know anyone who actually uses cacert, grahl? [8:12p] skyfaller: but I just don't intend to ever tell people about that Gmail account or use it :) [8:13p] skyfaller: unless our server explodes [8:13p] paulproteus: My PGP key is in the strong set, and I don't even know any such people. [8:13p] paulproteus: It is a good idea to have some sort of emergency plan in the case of explosion. [8:13p] paulproteus: I was joking with the acm.jhu.edu guys, "Imagine if there's a big fire, and Joi's lab burns down, and he no longer has any things, only money." [8:13p] skyfaller: LMAO! [8:14p] paulproteus: That's about what they did, too. (-: [8:14p] paulproteus: So anyway, sure, I'll do that right now, and document it. [8:15p] skyfaller: paulproteus: hooray! When you've successfully done it, could you kill the POP server? [8:16p] paulproteus: http://www.theplanet.com/hosting%5Faccessories/ssl/rapidssl.asp - $15 SSL [8:16p] paulproteus: (per year, like domain names) [8:17p] paulproteus: BTW, you may recognize theplanet.com - they're the ISP asmallorange.com used to rent from to resell it to downhill battle. [8:17p] paulproteus: Probably still are. [8:17p] skyfaller: LOL! [8:20p] skyfaller: paulproteus: maybe if we get some grants we'll be able to buy some of those? [8:20p] Lam_ left the chat room. (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) [8:20p] paulproteus: skyfaller, We'd only need one anyway. [8:20p] skyfaller: ok, one of those :) [8:20p] paulproteus: And maybe when I have an income I'll have $15 to spare anyway. (-; [8:20p] paulproteus: I mean, I'd of course prefer a grant buy it. [8:20p] skyfaller: yeah... FC.o needs some income [8:21p] skyfaller: we still have some money, but I hate to spend any of it b/c I don't know how it will be replace [8:21p] skyfaller: *replaceed [8:21p] skyfaller: argh [8:21p] skyfaller: typos suck [8:21p] skyfaller: paulproteus: would you come to a meeting about getting the national organization rolling again? [8:22p] paulproteus: An IRC meeting? [8:22p] skyfaller: sure [8:22p] paulproteus: Sure, if it was organized when I could be there. [8:22p] paulproteus: Which these days is just about anytime. [8:22p] skyfaller: dammit, Elizabeth is sick... I don't want to bug her, I guess it's getting kind of late there [8:22p] skyfaller: do you suppose it's safe to call her? [8:23p] skyfaller: e-star: are you there? [8:23p] paulproteus: Not terribly safe, no. [8:23p] skyfaller: yeah, I guess it'll have to wait [8:23p] skyfaller: I hate being on the west coast, it makes calling the east coast so inconvenient [8:23p] skyfaller: I never have time during the day and people have to sleep at night [8:23p] e-star: skyfaller: hello [8:24p] e-star: skyfaller: yes? [8:24p] skyfaller: e-star: howdy! I wanted to talk about meeting times for discussing nat'l business [8:24p] skyfaller: if we can get a few times that you, me and Asheesh could make, that would be a good starting point [8:25p] skyfaller: e-star: go to http://freeculture.org/cal/week.php and look at me, Karen and Asheesh's schedules [8:25p] skyfaller: (ignore Eli) [8:26p] skyfaller: and pick a few times where you are free and we aren't busy [8:26p] skyfaller: also, if you have a calendar, it would be really great if you could upload it [8:26p] skyfaller: paulproteus: actually, could you pull Eli for the moment? comment him out or something? He's not active nationally right now [8:26p] paulproteus: skyfaller, Gimme a sec. [8:27p] skyfaller: I was mostly curious whether we could make his Google calendar thing work [8:27p] skyfaller: and we could :) [8:27p] e-star: skyfaller: no gcal [8:27p] e-star: sorry [8:27p] skyfaller: e-star: do you use iCal or Sunbird? [8:27p] paulproteus: Or Evolution! [8:28p] e-star: skyfaller: no! [8:28p] skyfaller: e-star: really! how do you keep track of your schedule, then? [8:28p] e-star: skyfaller: brain [8:28p] skyfaller: you've memorized all of your appointments?  that's kind of scary [8:28p] paulproteus: Can you apt-get that? [8:29p] skyfaller: e-star: alright, regardless of whether you write your schedule down anywhere, could you look at http://freeculture.org/cal/week.php and find times when you and us 3 are available? [8:30p] e-star: skyfaller: well, i write them down sometimes, but just as text [8:30p] e-star: heh [8:30p] e-star: okay [8:30p] skyfaller: Thursday is a writeoff for me b/c I'm flying to Florida...  I might be able to do a conference call but I'd prefer IRC, so let's not do Thursday [8:31p] skyfaller: I don't have any commitments Fri-Sat-Sun [8:31p] paulproteus: skyfaller, http://wiki.freeculture.org/2007-02-28#Minutes look good to you? [8:31p] paulproteus: Can we call that a wrap and have you paste a log? [8:33p] skyfaller: paulproteus: sounds good to me... can you send a test e-mail to the 3 accounts that you are copying? [8:33p] skyfaller: nevermind, I'll do it [8:34p] skyfaller: paulproteus: but you're pretty sure that copying is working and POP3 is turned off? [8:34p] paulproteus: skyfaller, Yes, try emailing and POP3ing. [8:34p] paulproteus: I emailed one account already. [8:34p] paulproteus: I don't remember which. [8:35p] paulproteus: I didn't check that copying worked, now that I think about it, only checked that local delivery worked. [8:36p] skyfaller: paulproteus: I just sent 3 test e-mails, I don't think copying is working... Gmail hasn't received anything yet [8:39p] paulproteus: skyfaller, Sweet, let me look into this better. (-: [8:39p] skyfaller: e-star: any thoughts on meeting times?