2007-11-27/Log

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Note that the times here are New Delhi time because that's where the moderator was.

Nov 28 08:45:56 <paulproteus> 8--< CUT HERE FOR DEBATE >--8
Nov 28 08:45:57 <skyfaller> grahl says he'll be here in 10 minutes
Nov 28 08:45:59 <e-star> paulproteus: mecredis +v
Nov 28 08:46:04 <skyfaller> guess being late is trendy
Nov 28 08:46:05 <Mecredis> hey sorry I'm late, actually on iPhone
Nov 28 08:46:10 <skyfaller> w00t iphone
Nov 28 08:46:11 * paulproteus gives voice to Mecredis
Nov 28 08:46:15 <parkerhiggins> that's SO badass.
Nov 28 08:46:20 * paulproteus refrains from comment re: iphone
Nov 28 08:46:29 <e-star> so does /me
Nov 28 08:46:31 <e-star> hehe
Nov 28 08:46:36 <Mecredis> you refrain from that
Nov 28 08:46:43 <paulproteus> And you all say your names and schools.
Nov 28 08:46:47 <e-star> paulproteus: Great! Candidates, introduce yourselves with your name + say if you can make the future planned debates.
Nov 28 08:46:57 <Fear_of_C> Nicholas LaRacuente of Free Culture Swarthmore, able to make the Sunday debate
Nov 28 08:47:00 <CDucruet> double woot iphone. (not able to refrain due to touch screen infatuation)
Nov 28 08:47:19 <CDucruet> Christina Ducruet, Brown University
Nov 28 08:47:20 <Mecredis> fred, late @ nyu, will be there on sat/sun
Nov 28 08:47:33 <e-star> Elizabeth Stark, Harvard FC / Harvard Law, can make it on Sunday
Nov 28 08:47:34 <contra> Ben Mazer of FreeCulture Swarthmore, able to make the Sunday debate, but are there alternative times/days?
Nov 28 08:47:37 <CDucruet> CDucruet will also be here Sunday
Nov 28 08:47:39 <mllerustad> Karen Rustad of the Claremont Colleges, should be able to make it on Sunday
Nov 28 08:47:48 <skyfaller> next debate is Sun, Dec 2 at 3pm EST, 12pm PST, 8pm GMT
Nov 28 08:47:59 <Mecredis> ok
Nov 28 08:48:00 <pyrak> Parker Phinney of Chadwick School (k-12th in so cal), i'll be late on sunday
Nov 28 08:48:24 <skyfaller> Nelson Pavlosky from GMU Law (not a chapter yet), I'm available on Sunday
Nov 28 08:49:08 <skyfaller> I thought we should give people a little more than a line to introduce themselves, but whatever, I'm not picky
Nov 28 08:49:08 <Mecredis> ok wolf, Hillary's health care plan sucks
Nov 28 08:49:30 <e-star> paulproteus: ?
Nov 28 08:49:41 <e-star> Mecredis: wrong msg?
Nov 28 08:50:05 <Mecredis> estat: wrong debate
Nov 28 08:50:27 <paulproteus> pyrak, skyfaller, CDucruet, Mecredis, contra, Fear_of_C, and mllerustad have introduced themselves, and you're the candidates. Thanks.
Nov 28 08:50:38 * grahl (n=grahl@ip70-171-6-221.ga.at.cox.net) has joined #freeculture
Nov 28 08:50:41 <Mecredis> sickkk
Nov 28 08:50:42 <paulproteus> And grahl!
Nov 28 08:50:46 <paulproteus> grahl, State your name + school please.
Nov 28 08:50:50 * paulproteus gives voice to grahl
Nov 28 08:51:13 <grahl> sorry for my delay
Nov 28 08:51:15 <grahl> Jan Hendrik Grahl, University of Florida
Nov 28 08:51:27 <e-star> paulproteus: what about me?
Nov 28 08:51:31 <e-star>  :p
Nov 28 08:51:38 <paulproteus> e-star, Oops, sorry!
Nov 28 08:51:54 <e-star> grahl: will you be able to attend the debate on sunday at 3pm EST?
Nov 28 08:52:35 <grahl> e-star: affirmative
Nov 28 08:52:51 <skyfaller> OK, let's keep moving
Nov 28 08:53:06 <paulproteus> Okay, Fit the First then.
Nov 28 08:53:14 <paulproteus> Part a: I ask each of you questions.
Nov 28 08:53:22 <e-star> okay, so it sounds like everyone can be here on sunday, so we won't have to give any candidates extra time; for all the candidates that can only be there on sunday, we will
Nov 28 08:53:31 <e-star> have to give them extra time
Nov 28 08:54:14 <paulproteus> Everyone gets 3 minutes to answer this: How much aid should the global organization provide to the chapters, and what kind?
Nov 28 08:54:14 <Mecredis> ok
Nov 28 08:54:29 <skyfaller> and we all answer simultaneously, correct paulproteus ?
Nov 28 08:54:34 <paulproteus> Yes, all flood the channel.
Nov 28 08:54:38 <paulproteus> It's a race- go!
Nov 28 08:54:38 <e-star> do we have an answer word limit?
Nov 28 08:54:40 <contra> is that a good idea?
Nov 28 08:54:41 <paulproteus> e-star, No, just time.
Nov 28 08:54:46 <Mecredis> okkkk
Nov 28 08:55:07 <e-star> (hmm..ok, I prefer a word limit..)
Nov 28 08:55:12 <pyrak> global should ship pre-packaged events to chapters that want them, like the national day of action for taxpayer access
Nov 28 08:55:26 <Fear_of_C> primarily, I think that the national organization should set up the infrastructure so that previous projects do not have to be re-developed from scratch
Nov 28 08:55:38 <pyrak> (did you want this on one line, cus that's not what you're going to get)
Nov 28 08:55:45 <paulproteus> pyrak, No, many lines is fine.
Nov 28 08:55:51 <parkerhiggins> i bet fred on the iphone is wishing it was a word limit.
Nov 28 08:56:04 <paulproteus> And let me restart the timer and say that you all have *four* minutes starting now, since we're getting off to a rough-ish start.
Nov 28 08:56:21 * zomgoneoneone (n=he@n140s187.ntc.blacksburg.shentel.net) has joined #freeculture
Nov 28 08:56:26 <skyfaller> my platform says "webspace, professional-quality SFC propaganda and merch, pre-packaged events and activities", but that's not an exclusive list
Nov 28 08:56:26 <Fear_of_C> in addition, some campaigns are national in nature
Nov 28 08:56:36 <contra> Aid to chapters should be mainly in technical and knowledge support. There should be a complete set of resources available to any chapter and easy inter-chapter and national communication for dealing with new needs. Financial support should mainly be in the form of national-level events -- not private funding of very local FC chapter events
Nov 28 08:56:39 <e-star> The global organization should provide chapters with as much help is as reasonably possible given the circumstances of the organization. If we manage to fundraise and hire a fulltime coordinator, much of that coordinator's work should be involved in working with the chapters. If, one day, we get a lot of donations, those could be passed on in smaller grants to local chapters. Helping new and fledgling chapters should also be a prio
Nov 28 08:56:44 <Fear_of_C> and in these cases, the national organization should help coordinate
Nov 28 08:56:45 <paulproteus> One more thing: Please end your answer with </answer> so I know when you're all done.
Nov 28 08:57:03 * driscoll (n=driscoll@c-76-118-178-155.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #freeculture
Nov 28 08:57:07 <pyrak> i don't think there should be any kind of "quota" for how much aid is sent to chapters, i think as much as possible should be offered, but chapters should be asked whether or not they want it
Nov 28 08:57:09 <contra> </answer>
Nov 28 08:57:20 <e-star> </answer>
Nov 28 08:57:28 <e-star> paulproteus: +v for driscoll
Nov 28 08:57:34 * paulproteus gives voice to driscoll
Nov 28 08:57:37 <pyrak> so that national doesn't waste time and resources, and self-sufficient chapters dont get bothered
Nov 28 08:57:39 <e-star> driscoll: state your name, chapter, and if you are free on sunday at 3pm
Nov 28 08:57:42 <grahl> The global organization should give a little bit of swag to the chapters but otherwise they should operate independently. Events should be distinct, chapters should coordinate those amongst themselves, excluding larger projects (should any be undertaken in the near future), chapters should primarily receive technical and coordination support </answer>
Nov 28 08:57:48 <paulproteus> Hi driscoll, please say your name, if you can make the future Sunday meeting, and answer this question in progress: How much aid should the global organization provide to the chapters, and what kind? and end your answer with </answer>.
Nov 28 08:58:01 <skyfaller> e-star: I think part of your answer got cut off, it ends with "Helping new and fledgling chapters should also be a pri"
Nov 28 08:58:33 <driscoll> This is Kevin Driscoll from MIT and I can attend the debate on Sunday at 3pm EST.
Nov 28 08:59:05 <paulproteus> 1 minute left
Nov 28 08:59:17 <Fear_of_C> campaigns on issues like national legislation, I think, should have the national organization to help coordinate chapter efforts
Nov 28 08:59:18 <pyrak> also, as was said, there should be some system so events dont have to be re-created- theyre documented and other chapters can pick them up
Nov 28 08:59:18 <pyrak> </answer>
Nov 28 08:59:18 <e-star> Helping new and fledgling chapters should also be a priority for the global organization, including the coordinator and any volunteers. Of course, if stronger chapters are independent and don't necessarily need the help, that's fine too. </answer>
Nov 28 08:59:18 <Fear_of_C> and there should be material aid to chapters - distributed to all chapters that accept in order to ensure equitability
Nov 28 08:59:18 <CDucruet> I think that the strength of the nation organization depends greatly on the success of individual chapters therefore efforts should be made on the part of the national board and sub committees to coordinate efforts between chapters, particular old and new, so that the network actively evovles according its successes and failures. This type of coordination would require the nat'l org and local chps each to take an active role keeping informati
Nov 28 08:59:23 <Mecredis> /me asks for a time extension
Nov 28 08:59:23 <skyfaller> I think it's generally important to help fledgling chapters with both ideas/information and resources... many chapters don't know what to do when they first start up, and I think we need to put more effort into coordinating activities, so that chapters can work together
Nov 28 08:59:34 <Fear_of_C> but that we need to focus on getting the national org up and running before we can promise material aid
Nov 28 08:59:37 <paulproteus> Mecredis, Fine, you get an extra minute. Hurry up.
Nov 28 08:59:46 <Fear_of_C> </answer>
Nov 28 08:59:53 <driscoll> The global organization can aid by encouraging and managing the development of reusable materials and processes.
Nov 28 09:00:06 <pyrak> e-star, no fair, you already closed ur answer! :P
Nov 28 09:00:14 <skyfaller> CDucruet: you got cut off too :) "keeping informat" were your last words
Nov 28 09:00:16 <e-star> pyrak: apparently it got cut off
Nov 28 09:00:17 <mllerustad> Lots! Primarily, the central org should offer tech support (blog/wiki hosting), send out annual swag kits (pamphlets, stickers, etc) to chapters that want them, and compile event ideas and packages (checklists, kits, flyers, etc). It should make communication between chapters as seamless as possible, both with the email lists and perhaps someday with a formal newletter. In the future, if the national org is in a financial
Nov 28 09:00:17 <mllerustad> position to do so, it could subsidize members' attendance at FC conferences. Of course the central organization can serve lots of other purposes too (ie focusing FC campaigns, being a contact point for the media, etc.) but those are the most direct "service to chapter"-type activities I can think of.
Nov 28 09:00:28 <paulproteus> skyfaller, Thanks for checking for cut-offs. 1 min.
Nov 28 09:01:20 <CDucruet> In addition to the improvement of communication, basic aid such as promotional items (t shirts, posters, STICKERS) and anything to help chapters introduce the SFFC "brand" as it were would be greatly beneficial for both levels of SFFC
Nov 28 09:01:39 <driscoll> This might include sharing lists of potential visiting speakers, printable materials for coordinating events, or reusable text for responding to common FC-related on-campus events such as takedown notices.
Nov 28 09:01:39 <paulproteus> Okay, I'm closing this question in 30s.
Nov 28 09:01:41 <driscoll> </answer>
Nov 28 09:01:42 <CDucruet> keeping information up to date - this communication could be faciliated by online infrastructure such as shared calendars, documents/promotional material, and an ongoing discussion between all levels of the organization
Nov 28 09:01:43 <CDucruet> keeping information up to date - this communication could be faciliated by online infrastructure such as shared calendars, documents/promotional material, and an ongoing discussion between all levels of the organization
Nov 28 09:01:46 <CDucruet> previous comment cont'd:
Nov 28 09:02:03 <skyfaller> I believe that the national organization should organize more national / global efforts like the "open access day of action" that Gavin and I worked on, and encourage local events with a national purpose like Undead Art did
Nov 28 09:02:12 <skyfaller> </answer>
Nov 28 09:02:35 * m3cr3d1s (n=fcb@cpe-74-73-135-105.nyc.res.rr.com) has joined #freeculture
Nov 28 09:02:41 <paulproteus> Howdy m3cr3d1s.
Nov 28 09:02:46 * paulproteus gives voice to m3cr3d1s
Nov 28 09:02:47 <m3cr3d1s> yech
Nov 28 09:02:50 <m3cr3d1s> thanks
Nov 28 09:02:54 <skyfaller> e-star: still think we don't need minutes? :P
Nov 28 09:02:57 <m3cr3d1s> so I lost the last >10 lines
Nov 28 09:03:05 <paulproteus> skyfaller, I will reorganize these notes so we can see who said what.
Nov 28 09:03:06 <m3cr3d1s> on a real machine now
Nov 28 09:03:08 <m3cr3d1s> anyway, to answer the question
Nov 28 09:03:12 <e-star> skyfaller: if it's merely copying and pasting answers, i'm totally fine w/ it
Nov 28 09:03:16 <skyfaller> paulproteus: thank you! :)
Nov 28 09:03:22 <m3cr3d1s> I think it matters how much the global organization /can/ help the chapters
Nov 28 09:03:32 <e-star> skyfaller: i was just worried about paraphrase peoples' responses perhaps in a different way
Nov 28 09:03:33 <m3cr3d1s> if its in terms of resources and money and events and stuff
Nov 28 09:03:36 <e-star> i think that's a valid concern
Nov 28 09:03:37 <m3cr3d1s> then it should obviously do it
Nov 28 09:03:50 <CDucruet> Last but not least, I would echo what a lot of people are saying - the need for some nationally coordinated events which I see as a great opportunity to get some national press and some serious recognition furthering our momentum and generating new opportunities to reach more people.
Nov 28 09:03:55 <CDucruet> </answer>
Nov 28 09:03:55 <m3cr3d1s> but if its in terms of patting on the back and setting up meetings, I'm less incliend to think that those things "help" chapters
Nov 28 09:04:19 <m3cr3d1s> I think keeping up the tech side of things is incredibly important, but things happen on the ground
Nov 28 09:04:25 <m3cr3d1s> at local chapters
Nov 28 09:04:31 * Mecredis has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
Nov 28 09:04:40 <m3cr3d1s> and usually universities have adequate resources for helping clubs start up
Nov 28 09:04:42 <paulproteus> m3cr3d1s, I'm being nice, but hurry up and </answer>.
Nov 28 09:05:10 <m3cr3d1s> so, that said, if the global org has power and resources obviously they should be directly at chapters and nothing else
Nov 28 09:05:28 <m3cr3d1s> </answer>
Nov 28 09:05:29 <paulproteus> And it's closed for now. Thanks. Same rules: End your answer with </answer>. New question: How hard should it be to become an SFC chapter? Maybe you want to talk about checklists, or agreements, or contracts, or qualifications, or nihilism.
Nov 28 09:05:45 <paulproteus> Four minutes starting now.
Nov 28 09:06:41 <pyrak> we obviously have to balance ensuring a good name with minimizing hurdles (it's difficult enough to get activism off the ground as it is)
Nov 28 09:07:20 <Fear_of_C> firstly, it fundamentally depends on how much aid we plan to and are able to send to chapters, as the primary criterion will be to avoid spreading our resources too thinly; otherwise, I think that adding chapters is primary beneficial
Nov 28 09:07:28 <m3cr3d1s> Ok, I think what's crucial in being a chapter, and this is from my experience of gaining critical mass -- is to do an event, or an action, or something other than a general meeting. get a write up in the school's paper, get an interview or someone to come talk, show a movie -- anything that will show that you can collect and coordinate people on campus. we want effective chapters that promote leadership and action, so just having a gen
Nov 28 09:07:38 <CDucruet> Coming from the perspective of someone who very recently started a chapter - Sp 07 - I would review the current process as appropriate, people should be able to go for it without having to deal with a lot of red tape
Nov 28 09:07:45 <e-star> It shouldn't be that hard to be a chapter, but it should also be a chapter, and not just one person that doesn't have a group. As such, one bar to becoming a chapter may be to have a minimal number of members (3 or so), and to have organized at least one event, campaign, or other type of engagement on campus. This is important so that we don't claim to have chapters at schools where we don't have them.
Nov 28 09:07:50 <Fear_of_C> so my primary issue is determining that the chapter is going to survive and be capable of doing something with what we send them
Nov 28 09:07:54 <contra> I think it should be relatively easy to become a chapter officially (with voting rights, etc.), but more importantly, I think we should encourage groups of students to take on the FC "name" ...
Nov 28 09:07:55 * BrianRowe (n=Brion@71-35-171-227.tukw.qwest.net) has joined #freeculture
Nov 28 09:08:07 <mllerustad> Any student should be able to register a campus chapter, using our registration form. I believe the coordinator should have a good deal of discretion in determining what chapters to recommend for membership (based basically on making sure that they're not crazy and seem interested in doing things for the movement). I'm opposed to time limits or requiring an arbitrary number of "events." If they're not doing anything, or d
Nov 28 09:08:07 <mllerustad> oing things that don't fit with FC, they'll get booted by the Board. Simple.
Nov 28 09:08:07 <skyfaller> I believe that establishing "interest lists" for people who are interested in starting a chapter but who are not ready to shoulder the burden of starting a chapter by themselves will remove many of the problems we've had in the past with "half-ass" chapters, and that once we have those set up we should simply take people at their word that they're ready for a real chapter when they want to move from an interest list to a full fledged chapter
Nov 28 09:08:25 <e-star> We should have a separate list of interested individuals who want to form a chapter, and help foster those groups, but they should be distinguished from the groups themselves.
Nov 28 09:08:47 <driscoll> Students should be able to start a chapter without any approval process.
Nov 28 09:08:49 <contra> We should encourage them to unite under this "movement" and provide diversity to it. Emotional and ideological commitment are important to maintain at the local level and too many "legal" hurdles destroys momentum.
Nov 28 09:08:50 <CDucruet> However, once a chapter is initiated and suppossed to exist, I think there should be a system of review after the first year, and then, after that, on a semesterly basis
Nov 28 09:08:53 <grahl> The primary requirement would be to aknowledge the bylaws and any requirements the individual university might place on starting student organizations. A further requirement could be a minimum of five active members/officers. Lastly, a confirmation interview with at least two of them should take place (IRC or in RL) to weed out troublemakers. </answer>
Nov 28 09:08:57 <paulproteus> Hi BrianRowe, if you're a candidate partipating in this election please say your name + chapter. We're finishing a question: 1m left.
Nov 28 09:09:02 <Fear_of_C> so I agree about setting up an "interest list" for chapters that are beginning to form, and sending them supplies once they have shown that they can stay around and organize events for a couple of months
Nov 28 09:09:28 <skyfaller> I'm fundamentally opposed to any significant hurdles beyond saying "I really want to start a chapter", providing their full contact info and filling out the required forms
Nov 28 09:09:28 <driscoll> If they wish to have affiliation with the global org, there should be a mechanism for communicating with new chapters.
Nov 28 09:09:30 <Fear_of_C> it will also be possible for us to send supplies to an earlier chapter that needs them to get started
Nov 28 09:09:49 <pyrak> save for perhaps a small period before a chapter is recognized as "official," there shouldn't be any barrier for becoming a chapter
Nov 28 09:09:54 <contra> Propaganda support should be overflowing, and voting rights/real funds should be more limited until the chapter's established. But let students feel they can be active immediately. </answer>
Nov 28 09:10:02 <driscoll> The global org might help facilitate the combination of smaller, geographically close chapters.
Nov 28 09:10:07 <pyrak> and resources should be given to any even potential chapters that need them, until we start to see some kind of shortage
Nov 28 09:10:23 <skyfaller> the primary contact for each chapter should also be subscribed to the relevant e-mail lists and promise to respond to important e-mails in some timely fashion unless incapacitated :P
Nov 28 09:10:37 <driscoll> As I don't see the global org dispensing funds to the chapters, the only privilege to consider is voting rights.
Nov 28 09:10:39 <pyrak> </answer>
Nov 28 09:10:48 <Fear_of_C> so basically, I believe that a "chapter" should be able to register and make requests almost immediately, but require some more time before it reaches the official status necessary to be eligible for all material aid and voting
Nov 28 09:11:02 <Fear_of_C> </answer>
Nov 28 09:11:08 <CDucruet> This review process would ensure that 1. There are designated leaders for that period of time, and for the immediate future, 2. That they are still in contact with the national organization, 3. That they have or plan to have at least one project during the course of the semester and if not, that they are engaged with other chapters or the national organization in planning or executing a project
Nov 28 09:11:19 <e-star> I think it's important not to claim we have a group at a school where we don't actually have one (we've had issues with this in the past), but it's also key to also communicate with individuals who may be interested but may not have started a group just yet. Distinguishing between chapters and interested individuals can help solve this issue. </answer>
Nov 28 09:11:36 <mllerustad> oh, right </answer>
Nov 28 09:11:39 <driscoll> If the global org is maintaining a list of active chapters, it should not be difficult to identify groups to vote.
Nov 28 09:11:59 <driscoll> I assume that some chapters may choose not to affiliate themselves with the global org.
Nov 28 09:12:03 <driscoll> </answer>
Nov 28 09:12:16 <paulproteus> </answer>s please. New question, with a time of 5 minutes this time: Presuming that we suddenly a donation of enough money to fund a coordinator, with no earmarks, do you think that a paid coordinator would be a good use of that money?
Nov 28 09:12:24 <CDucruet> I think this will help to manage the problems that arise when a chapter is started but its leaders go abroad or graduate, and/or when membership fluxuates for the same reasons - both issues happen more than once a year, thus the need for a semesterly review
Nov 28 09:12:38 <CDucruet> </answer>
Nov 28 09:12:58 <pyrak> (what's an earmark?)
Nov 28 09:13:07 <skyfaller> I think that prop support / website help etc. should be overflowing from the moment a chapter starts, and that voting rights / real funds should be witheld until a chapter has been around for a certain time period, but no "tests" should be employed </answer>
Nov 28 09:13:22 <paulproteus> Clarifications: This is independent of technical issues like 501(c)3 status or other bureaucratic things. "No earmark" means that if we wanted we could spend that money however we wanted.
Nov 28 09:13:23 <Fear_of_C> I think that a paid coordinator is necessary, and that we should actively seek the funds to support one, so if we are given the money, it is a good use
Nov 28 09:13:52 <oo7akbnd> m3cr3d1s: if you're not typing right now, your answer got cut off at "gen"
Nov 28 09:14:07 <m3cr3d1s> hrm...
Nov 28 09:14:25 <pyrak> a paid coordinator would be incredibly helpful. coordinating chapters, making phonecalls to press or other orgs, etcetc are all things that people already maintaining chapters will have difficulty doing.
Nov 28 09:14:26 <Fear_of_C> this is because we are currently relying on infrastructure that does not exist and asking volunteers who are time-crunched due to schoolwork to handle tasks that are top priority
Nov 28 09:14:32 <CDucruet> In the future SFFC should hope to be in exactly this situation and should proactively try to get funds for the purpose of hiring a coordinator
Nov 28 09:14:33 <m3cr3d1s> oo7akbnd: thanks. I guess I wanted to say *generate more and new and better ideas for people to share... I've seen this happen with the events / actions FC @ NYU has started and other chapters have picked up
Nov 28 09:14:42 <Fear_of_C> if we are to become a 501c, we cannot allow deadlines to slip or paperwork to go undone
Nov 28 09:14:45 <contra> I think a paid coordinator would be wonderful -- he would do the administrative tasks, and general promotion and chapter organization. Someone would always be able to answer emails! Even one full-time staff member would do wonders for the organization. Additionally, I think we should seek funding for part-time staff and interns. The "work" of national SFC right now really can be largely accomplished by a couple of people working full time.</answ
Nov 28 09:14:55 <paulproteus> THanks for clarifying, m3cr3d1s. Three minutes.
Nov 28 09:14:58 <mllerustad> YES. We desperately need a paid coordinator. There are so many things around here that don't get done, that no one in their right mind (*coughNelsoncough*) would volunteer to do--both because of the time commitment and because of tediousness. I can't think of anything that we could spend that amount of money on that would be more productive. </answer>
Nov 28 09:15:12 <grahl> I believe a coordinator would be a very good way to spend the money since it would be provide, as the name indicates, a single point of coordination. Not just for chapters and outside organizations to contact but more importantly as a means of following-up on chapters, their progress, and the intra-organizational communication. It's good to have somebody committed to keeping an eye on things. </answer>
Nov 28 09:15:16 <Fear_of_C> and I believe that our lack of infrastructure and coordination has done serious damage to our organization's effectiveness and ability to assist and retain chapters
Nov 28 09:15:28 <m3cr3d1s> paulproteus: I believe it depends on the competency of the coordinator. Supposing we trust them and they're someone we know and who is part of our community already (See: ORG and Becky Hogge) then I think it would be a good use of money supposing they can actively help find grants and support chapters.
Nov 28 09:15:30 <m3cr3d1s> I would not be interested in spending a lot of time educating someone who doesn't understand what SFFC is about and why we do what we do, or someone who just wants to order us more t-shirts/care packages.
Nov 28 09:15:32 <m3cr3d1s> </answer>
Nov 28 09:15:40 <e-star> Yes. There is a lot of work to be done, and as someone who has worked on responding to many of our emails in the past year or two, I do realize that having a full time individual would be key to coordinating between chapters. While a full time volunteer would be great, that is highly unlikely, and as such, a paid coordinator would be the most likely way to get this done, and could ideally work with the community of volunteers to ma
Nov 28 09:15:55 <CDucruet> This coordinator could be responsible for, among many other tasks, being a point person for questions related to new chapter set-up, particularly the technical aspects and the mailings and initial communications
Nov 28 09:15:55 * Yaco2 (n=Franco@201.255.238.18) has joined #freeculture
Nov 28 09:16:02 <Fear_of_C> so I think that we will need a competent, paid coordinator before we can spend on other things with maximum effectiveness
Nov 28 09:16:04 <Fear_of_C> </answer?
Nov 28 09:16:07 <m3cr3d1s> e-star: you got cut off at volunteers to ma
Nov 28 09:16:32 <pyrak> granted that we'll try to fill this need for organization with non-paid volunteer(s) as per the bylaws, but a paid position would allow far more productivity, and keeping the org organized is fundamental to its success
Nov 28 09:16:38 <pyrak> </answer>
Nov 28 09:16:41 * m3cr3d1s is now known as mecredis
Nov 28 09:16:44 <e-star> While a full time volunteer would be great, that is highly unlikely, and as such, a paid coordinator would be the most likely way to get this done, and could ideally work with the community of volunteers to make things happen.
Nov 28 09:17:07 <driscoll> Hiring a coordinator would help generate cohesion for the national organization. I balk to suggest a method for hiring such a person.
Nov 28 09:17:08 <skyfaller> I believe that a paid coordinator is essential to the future of this organization, we need someone to help manage volunteers, and to do the boring tasks that nobody wants to volunteer for, such as shipping care packages. Ideally it would be an alumn of our organization, but if that's not possible someone else familiar with and passionate about the free culture movement should be fine.
Nov 28 09:17:10 <e-star> I also agree that we should hire a qualified candidate with a background in the field, but I think that's somewhat of a given. </answer>
Nov 28 09:17:12 <CDucruet> I think that this coordinator - no matter how badly we need one - should come from close to SFFC and be reviewed by the board before consideration for this role
Nov 28 09:18:04 <driscoll> Not having been on the administrative side before, I wonder somewhat naively if the board would not be able to identify tasks that need to be done, document the process, and annually assign these jobs.
Nov 28 09:18:04 <skyfaller> I believe that our top priority should be finding a coordinator and raising the funds necessary to hire them, once the board, core team, and volunteers are up and running.
Nov 28 09:18:13 <CDucruet> aka not just anyone willing to do a lot of grunt work - someone with a great deal of passion and vision on par with the board would be essential
Nov 28 09:18:27 <paulproteus> 30 seconds, finish up.
Nov 28 09:18:56 <skyfaller> if funding does not currently exist, we need to get creative.
Nov 28 09:18:58 <skyfaller> </answer>
Nov 28 09:19:15 <paulproteus> Any questions from the spectators? If so, write them in the channel starting with "paulproteus" so I'm sure to see it. Otherwise, last question for part 1: same rule as before: 5 minutes, write </answer> when done: What does the global organization need to be working on that chapters cannot do individually?
Nov 28 09:19:36 <CDucruet> The board, assuming we all recognize the need for a paid coordinator, should proceed immediately in developing a set of responsibilities and a method for securing funding for a coordinator
Nov 28 09:19:39 <driscoll> Funding adds such complexity to the global org that I prefer waiting until the board is settled before making a definitive statement.
Nov 28 09:19:42 <CDucruet> </answer>
Nov 28 09:19:42 <driscoll> </answer>
Nov 28 09:20:16 <pyrak> global needs to coordinate with and give resources to chapters.
Nov 28 09:20:34 <Fear_of_C> first of all, the global organization needs to deal with issues across chapter lines: for example, national campaigns could benefit immensely by coordinating all chapters for mass action, but it would be unreasonable to expect any particular chapter or chapters to act as the coordinators
Nov 28 09:21:31 <skyfaller> obvious answer #1 is coordinating the chapters to present a united front on given issues, both on the local level and national/global level
Nov 28 09:21:39 <Fear_of_C> secondly, the national org needs to make sure that newer chapters have the support they need before they've had time to be fully established: meaning material aid, sharing experience of older chapters, and common infrastructure such as web space
Nov 28 09:21:54 <driscoll> The global organization should document the amazing work happening at local chapters and provide infrastructure for archiving, promoting, and sharing this documentation.
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Nov 28 09:22:25 <CDucruet> The global organization's main priority, second only to finding a coordinator and the necessary funds, should be to maintain partnerships with outside organizations AND to foster new ones
Nov 28 09:22:39 <Fear_of_C> thirdly, the national organization needs to be responsible for negotiating with other national organizations, such as creative commons and the eff, and for maintaining the free culture name and presenting a unified face to the outside world
Nov 28 09:22:40 <oo7akbnd> paulproteus: What do you propose can be done to make the ideas of SFC more, for lack of a better word, "sexy"? What I mean is, speaking from our high school chapter's experience, no matter how many announcements are made or events organized, we only attract a small, core group of students. How can the ideals of SFC be better pitched to the layman in order to garner more support? I hope this makes sense.
Nov 28 09:22:48 <driscoll> In a sense, while local chapters innovate, the global org will try to figure out how to scale new ideas up so that they are useful to other chapters.
Nov 28 09:22:50 <contra> The global organization most importantly needs to promote the activities of local chapters. It needs to explain and show our beliefs and activities (focusing on what local chapters are actually doing) to the general public, and it needs to foster relationships with other similar organizations so chapters have connections for specific projects. It should not be running many projects on its own (at least one chapter should be supporting a project)
Nov 28 09:22:53 <e-star> The global organization should (1) help to fundraise (2) coordinate between chapters (3) reach out to other organizations (4) be a hub for media requests (5) reach out to chapters (6) help organize and coordinate campaigns (7) assist with the (inter)national conference (8) help to compile reports and (9) deal with administrivia (*if* we decide to file for 501(c)(3), etc.).
Nov 28 09:22:57 <pyrak> i guess a main thing that global will need to do for chapters is advertising- they'll put up a blog post and do interviews with newspapers for events. also they could help put out other non-event projects (ie essays, lists, websites)
Nov 28 09:23:16 <mecredis> I believe a lot of the "coordination" that we're talking about can happen already -- we have an e-mail list, we have a web blog. We aren't going to get a coordinator to start twisting people's arms. I believe the best thing a global org can to do is repackage the work individual chapters are doing and modularize it in a way that other chapters can do it. As well as write grants and establish us as a lightweight 501c3.
Nov 28 09:23:19 <paulproteus> I accept oo7akbnd's question, and we'll start answering it in two minutes. Finish up this question in that time. (-:
Nov 28 09:23:23 <Fear_of_C> please replace national org with "global" in what I have said previously
Nov 28 09:23:26 <skyfaller> as CDucruet says, maintaining and creating partnerships with friendly organizations is vital and not something that is best done on the individual chapter level. an org like the EFF doesn't want to have to talk to 30 people, they want one or two contacts who they can deal with
Nov 28 09:23:52 <CDucruet> If SFFC is going to stay on the map and continue to evolve, not all of the change and development will come from within - I feel that it is really important to actively pursue new relationships as there are numerous ways we could benefit
Nov 28 09:23:53 <driscoll> The global org should also help coordinate inter-chapter events such as days of action, regional gatherings, and celebrations.
Nov 28 09:24:02 <e-star> </answer>
Nov 28 09:24:13 <Fear_of_C> </answer>
Nov 28 09:24:15 <mecredis> </answer>
Nov 28 09:24:24 <skyfaller> similarly, a speaker's bureau would be invaluable... if we want Jimbo Wales to speak at our schools, there should be one point of contact, not 30. Same idea for musical acts and other touring events, which we could help chapters with
Nov 28 09:24:29 <pyrak> of course, if we get funds and paid positions, global will handle them. i guess the only thing that needs to be added is that it's important that global remember that it's a chapter-based org
Nov 28 09:24:30 <grahl> The primary effort should be to build the SFFC brand and distinguish it from say, CC, not to take away from CC but to focus everyone on what SFFC actually is. It should also be investigated if projects with other large organizations can be managed and then spread that out to chapters e.g. get someone like Amnesty Intl to cosponsor an event for students to create media for a Human Rights campaign under copyleft licenses.</answer>
Nov 28 09:25:04 <driscoll> In time, the global org should have a deep rolodex, and a variety of tactics, and ideas to help bootstrap activity by local chapters.
Nov 28 09:25:06 <CDucruet> I also think that we have a great deal to bring to the table and we should market the global organization as a viable player in the realm of free culture discourse which will draw new connections to us
Nov 28 09:25:06 <driscoll> </answer>
Nov 28 09:25:16 <pyrak> which means mentioning that they don't necessarily speak for all chapters (in interview, etc) and not being overbearing as far as telling chapters what to do
Nov 28 09:25:22 <paulproteus> Okay, all, new question thanks to oo7akbnd , five minutes: What do you propose can be done to make the ideas of SFC more, for lack of a better word, "sexy"? What I mean is, speaking from our high school chapter's experience, no matter how many announcements are made or events organized, we only attract a small, core group of students. How can the ideals of SFC be better pitched to the layman in order to garner more support?
Nov 28 09:25:22 <pyrak> </answer>
Nov 28 09:25:35 <skyfaller> finally, organizing global conferences has both a high administrative overhead and a need for funding which the global org can help fill. Specifically, I believe the global org should subsidize travel costs at least once a year for a global SFC conference
Nov 28 09:25:37 <skyfaller> </answer>
Nov 28 09:25:39 <e-star> paulproteus: when do we move on to part 2? quite a few people said they have to leave
Nov 28 09:25:56 <paulproteus> e-star, Yes, but we started late. This is the last part 1 question and we'll start part 2 with those who have to leave soon.
Nov 28 09:26:06 <CDucruet> I had a very positive experience working with the Digital Freedom Campaign - it allowed Brown Free Culture to be a part of an event that we could have never pulled off on our own so early in the year - and yet, we did and the DFC was extremely thankful for our help!
Nov 28 09:26:08 <mllerustad> 1.) Getting grants and 501(c)3 status. 2.) Getting press. Free Culture used to generate tons of coverage, but lately it's been just a trickle. Chapters do cool things that can be covered, but the central org can organize multi-chapter campaigns, write press releases, and use the SFC "brand" to get press all over the country. 3.) Infrastructure. Our website is where the org is headquartered, fundamentally. No one chapter's
Nov 28 09:26:08 <mllerustad> going to keep it up. The central org can, and through it provide chapters with their own online resources. 4.) Partnering and negotiating with other organizations (and not just the usual suspects like EFF and CC). 5.) Do conferences (which sorta involve most of these goals). ... I'm sure I'm missing a ton of stuff. </answer>
Nov 28 09:26:53 <pyrak> i allude to a passage from "free culture" by lessig in my platform
Nov 28 09:26:54 <paulproteus> If you have to leave very, very soon, please simply write "paulproteus: i leave soon" so I can use that to org. part 2.
Nov 28 09:27:06 <pyrak> we need to make students "see the harm" through concrete examples
Nov 28 09:27:13 <CDucruet> In addition, that partnership has led to discussions with EduCause who reached out to us through the DFC and once again, this proved to be a fruitful and exciting possibility
Nov 28 09:27:45 <pyrak> especially in my experience with highschoolers, they're much more interested in the hidden costs involved in switching from their ipod to a zune thanks to DRM, than in lofty ideas
Nov 28 09:28:18 <skyfaller> I think that mass action is the key to creating buzz. If one chapter does something once, all by themselves, it's not that interesting. If many chapters do the same thing across the country, especially if they do it at the same time, then it's a movement!
Nov 28 09:28:25 <pyrak> once you have them with you on the concrete examples of injustice, then they'll see the lofty ideals and realize they're not so lofty, and they'll "see the harm"
Nov 28 09:28:41 <Fear_of_C> I think we need to pitch the right ideas to the right people
Nov 28 09:28:51 <Fear_of_C> aka, relevance
Nov 28 09:28:53 <driscoll> To quote 50 Cent : "Nothing sells music like music."
Nov 28 09:28:58 <e-star> In order to make the ideas of SFC "sexier," we need to be able to reach out to a broader community--including artists, activists, technologists, musicians, political types, educators, writers, and more. I think the more conversations we can have with people who *haven't* heard about free culture, the better. We can't always make it too legally or technologically-focused. And we can't always expect everyone to agree. But bringing th
Nov 28 09:29:06 <skyfaller> but mass action doesn't address the question of what the content of our pitch should be, which seems more what Adi is asking
Nov 28 09:29:07 <e-star> did that get cut off?
Nov 28 09:29:08 <Fear_of_C> we need to emphasize the dj/remix/music aspect in many situations
Nov 28 09:29:13 <skyfaller> e-star: yup
Nov 28 09:29:15 <contra> I think our first order of business is to attract people who have a direct interest in FC ideas: artists, students (other academics), librarians, etc. These people really will agree with us if we can explain WHY these ideas are important. I've "converted" many people simply by sitting down and explaining why copyright (using SPECIFIC examples and current events) truly affects their lives. From that perspective, it's much less of a "nerd" activit
Nov 28 09:29:17 <Fear_of_C> with programmers, it can be more about FOSS
Nov 28 09:29:27 <parkerhiggins> e-star: at "bringing th"
Nov 28 09:29:29 <Fear_of_C> but we need to tell people why free culture is relevant to their lives
Nov 28 09:29:33 <mecredis> With respect to making SFFC more "sexy" -- I think gender dynamics have a lot to do with it. I think the more we can diversify our constiuency the better. The less we discuss highly esoteric technic details the better. High school may be a level that people aren't willing to commit to political ideas outside their technical implications, like what pyrak said. I think couching FC ideas in terms of actual culture makes the difference.
Nov 28 09:29:33 <pyrak> this means going the extra mile to really get the word out there and not force people to look things up on wikipedia. we can start by publishing and distributing a list of non-DRM music distributors
Nov 28 09:29:36 <CDucruet> I feel that many of the goals the global organization hopes to accomplish (particularly in terms of press and impact) would be realized through the generation of new partnerships and the fostering of current relationships with outside organizations - and this is an activity best carried out by the global org.
Nov 28 09:29:44 <driscoll> Go forth and organize fun things for the three people in your chapter.
Nov 28 09:29:49 <CDucruet> </answe>
Nov 28 09:29:49 <Fear_of_C> also, we need to come up with speeches that don't define too many terms
Nov 28 09:29:54 <skyfaller> I think that emphasizing the "DIY" aspects, and putting the power to do FC-ish things in the hands of the students is the best way to get them excited about our ideals
Nov 28 09:30:16 <Fear_of_C> we can explain the jargon later: focus on the message in the introductin
Nov 28 09:30:19 <Fear_of_C> </answer?
Nov 28 09:30:22 <mecredis> </answer>
Nov 28 09:30:26 <CDucruet> oh shoot I am behind on the questions!
Nov 28 09:30:36 * Mecredis- (n=root@32.140.236.143) has joined #Freeculture
Nov 28 09:30:38 <driscoll> And if a strong archive of successful sexy activities is available, chapters bereft of sexy ideas can get sexy sooner.
Nov 28 09:30:41 <driscoll> </answer>
Nov 28 09:30:41 <pyrak> i think other people are talking about knowing your audience, and that's also true. i guess the overall point is that you need to make the movement relevant. seems obvious, but we need to really go out of our way to make sure we are taking action to do so.
Nov 28 09:30:44 <mecredis> for fucks sake that's my iphone
Nov 28 09:30:47 <mllerustad> 1.) We need a "What is Free Culture?" pamphlet, with snazzy graphics. This doesn't seem to exist anywhere. The EFF and CC and all those have nicely designed, succinct literature--we should too! 2.) Advising chapters to mix it up and do some fun events (movie showings, F/OSS gaming nights, etc.) along with serious ones. 3.) Advising chapters to take a list of existing clubs and organizations and trying to work together wit
Nov 28 09:30:47 <mllerustad> h them on common issue (e.g. DVD region coding with the Anime Club, a CC art show with the Art Society). </answer>
Nov 28 09:31:02 <skyfaller> e.g. remix contests as many people are saying, but I also like projects like Antenna Alliance because they provide a lot of ways for many different kinds of people to become involved and active, in AA's case musicians, DJs, audio engineers, artists for album art and t-shirts, etc.
Nov 28 09:31:07 <pyrak> </answer>
Nov 28 09:31:11 <CDucruet> Making SFC more sexy: Sexy national projects with sexy, streamlined promo and modular press nuggets to be distributed by chapters
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Nov 28 09:31:32 <paulproteus> Thanks all for a deliciously enjoyable Part 1 and for your hilaroius typos typing </answer> during this part. Now for part 2, if you have a question you want to ask the other candidates (pref. targeted at one candidate), please say "paulproteus: question", and if I call on you, please ask your question quickly and end it with </question>.
Nov 28 09:31:43 <skyfaller> </answer>
Nov 28 09:32:00 <CDucruet> I will comment on this more on Sunday as I believe I am out of time!
Nov 28 09:32:01 <grahl> I'm not certain that we can ever really appeal to the layman, the college audience is where I do see enough potential and there even the laywoman works with e.g. DRM every day through their iPods. Raising awareness is a difficult but necessary step. Events around consumer electronics and the current social platform of choice can be a way to reach out to students who might not have cared otherwise, simply due to the right buzzwords and the
Nov 28 09:32:01 <grahl> point that it affects them even if they don't know it. Proper content and actions that the individual then can take have to follow, of course. </answer>
Nov 28 09:32:13 <skyfaller> CDucruet: thanks for coming!
Nov 28 09:32:19 <CDucruet> </answer>
Nov 28 09:32:21 <e-star> But bringing the issues up with people involved in creating culture is key. Connecting with other movements, such as human rights or community art centers or environmentalists or civil libertarians, and explaining the ideals behind free culture as to how it could relate to their work, would also help to spread the word. And we need clear-cut materials on our website about what our org does and why free culture is important, in term
Nov 28 09:32:33 <CDucruet> I just meant I am out of time onthat question, I can stay
Nov 28 09:32:40 <skyfaller> CDucruet: oh, ok :)
Nov 28 09:32:51 <paulproteus> Thanks CDucruet, sorry to stretch this longer than you can be around.
Nov 28 09:32:57 <paulproteus> Er, ignore the above.
Nov 28 09:33:01 <pyrak> e-star, cut off at "important, in ter"
Nov 28 09:33:02 <CDucruet> paulproteus: that's ok!
Nov 28 09:33:05 <paulproteus> Hey! Dudes! Someone say "paulproteus: question".
Nov 28 09:33:25 <e-star> And we need clear-cut materials on our website about what our org does and why free culture is important, in terms that anyone can understand.</answer>
Nov 28 09:33:28 <oo7akbnd> (thanks for the answers, by the way)
Nov 28 09:33:45 <skyfaller> paulproteus: question for mecredis
Nov 28 09:33:50 <paulproteus> skyfaller, go ahead
Nov 28 09:33:55 <mecredis> please
Nov 28 09:34:28 <paulproteus> BTW I'm going to formally call this over at half past no matter what happens, or sooner if it gets boring quickly. (-;
Nov 28 09:34:29 <skyfaller> mecredis: you suggested earlier that there are limits to how much the national organization can help chapters... could you elaborate on those limits? How *can't* SFC help its chapters?
Nov 28 09:34:41 <paulproteus> skyfaller, </question> ?
Nov 28 09:34:46 <paulproteus> (If others have questions, please say "paulproteus: question" and I'll queue you.)
Nov 28 09:35:10 <skyfaller> or if it's more relevant, how do you think SFC should not help its chapters? </question>
Nov 28 09:35:35 <e-star> paulproteus: question for skyfaller
Nov 28 09:35:47 <mecredis> ... answering ,...
Nov 28 09:35:48 <mecredis> one moment
Nov 28 09:35:57 <paulproteus> e-star, Fire away right now; just start it with "skyfaller:" please and end with </question>.
Nov 28 09:36:07 <contra> I have to run, emergency
Nov 28 09:36:09 * paulproteus is all about multiplexing
Nov 28 09:36:16 <mllerustad> contra: see ya!
Nov 28 09:36:17 <paulproteus> Thanks for coming contra, read the notes later!
Nov 28 09:36:18 <contra> but I do have questions for Sunday!
Nov 28 09:36:18 * contra has quit ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
Nov 28 09:36:31 <paulproteus> (Whoa, CGI::IRC was useful and worked when needed.)
Nov 28 09:36:36 <paulproteus> myself brb in 2m...
Nov 28 09:37:02 <mecredis> In my view a lot of the way the global/national org has been "helping" chapters is by calling meetings and organizing wiki edits. This is not a fruitful use of chapter head's time, and I've been repeated told this by people trying to start chapters. In fact, I feel it is something that actively discourages chapter heads from continuing their involvement with our org because they get scared by the "bureaucracy"
Nov 28 09:37:03 <driscoll> paulproteus: question
Nov 28 09:37:20 <mecredis> Furthermore I think it is useful to understand our limitations.
Nov 28 09:37:24 <e-star> skyfaller: You appear to be the only board candidate that isn't currently involved with a chapter. Do you plan on starting one? If not, do you think no longer being in a chapter will put you in a different position than others?</question>
Nov 28 09:37:51 <mllerustad> paulproteus: question
Nov 28 09:38:11 <mecredis> We're not going to end up with an infinite amount of money or time and even if we get a coordinator, it will be prudent to understand what our limits can be. If we don't then we're being naive and overly idealistic. I'm interested in practical real action not a lot of hot air, and I think my experience and track record with SFFC shows this.
Nov 28 09:38:14 <mecredis> </answer>
Nov 28 09:39:13 <paulproteus> driscoll, Okay, if it's for skyfaller wait; otherwise just ask it right now.
Nov 28 09:39:15 <skyfaller> I would be interested in starting a chapter, but I guess I'm one of the proposed "interest lists"... I'm not going to start a chapter by myself. I'll put out feelers next semester and see how many allies turn up, and if there are another couple people then I'll probably start one.
Nov 28 09:39:53 <paulproteus> mllerustad, Same deal as I told driscoll.
Nov 28 09:40:14 <paulproteus> (Unless mllerustad's question is for the same person as driscoll's, in which case driscoll's goes first.)
Nov 28 09:40:38 <skyfaller> It may put me in a different position if I no longer have a sense of what issues chapters are facing today, but I have been involved in starting so many chapters in the past, and I have been personally involved in both the Swarthmore chapter and the Claremont chapter, so I think that I have more than enough experience.
Nov 28 09:40:55 <e-star> paulproteus: question for pyrak
Nov 28 09:41:02 <pyrak> woopwoop
Nov 28 09:41:07 <paulproteus> e-star, Fire away.
Nov 28 09:41:25 <skyfaller> I may just have to make an effort to talk to and listen to people who currently have chapters if I haven't managed to start one yet, but people should know that I'm pretty good at talking to people and staying in touch :) </answer>
Nov 28 09:41:38 <driscoll> All candidates: Beyond immediate issues like DRM, please identify one way in which a more free culture differs from the status quo.
Nov 28 09:41:50 <e-star> pyrak: Are there any insights that you think you've gained by starting what I think is our first high school chapter? Do you think this makes you particularly qualified to represent high school students interested in FC? If so, why?
Nov 28 09:41:53 <CDucruet> If no one has any questions for me, I have to run unfortunately
Nov 28 09:42:04 <CDucruet> paulproteus: is that ok?
Nov 28 09:42:12 <paulproteus> Final call for questions to CDucruet?
Nov 28 09:42:25 <paulproteus> driscoll's "all candidates" question - wait to answer until pyrak has answered his question.
Nov 28 09:42:33 <paulproteus> e-star, </question>?
Nov 28 09:42:44 <e-star> oops, </question>
Nov 28 09:42:47 <CDucruet> I'll wait for driscoll's
Nov 28 09:42:50 <pyrak> first insight: it's incredibly difficult to mobilize highschool students, especially affluent private-school ones :P
Nov 28 09:43:03 <paulproteus> i.e., if you're pyrak, answer e-star's question; if you have a question for CDucruet ping me; otherwise hush.
Nov 28 09:43:49 <pyrak> which i think has created a great experience for me, because i've had to appeal and re-appeal to my peers in different ways, slowly understanding what appeals work
Nov 28 09:44:08 <e-star> paulproteus: question for CDucruet and mllerustad
Nov 28 09:44:23 <paulproteus> e-star, ask your question now
Nov 28 09:44:50 <e-star> Why do you think there are still fewer women leaders in the FC movement? What can we do to change this? </questions>
Nov 28 09:44:59 <e-star> er, </question>
Nov 28 09:45:38 <skyfaller> driscoll: I seem to recall answering this question at the Harvard conf :) To answer in brief, I think that a more participatory culture will encourage people to get involved with the world around them, from making their music and movies, to contributing to news reporting, to building their own computers and wifi mesh networks. I also believe this will make them less apathetic, and more passionate about the aspects of culture they are involv
Nov 28 09:45:39 <skyfaller> ed with.
Nov 28 09:45:43 <paulproteus> skyfaller, Hush!
Nov 28 09:45:53 * paulproteus has kicked skyfaller from #freeculture (paulproteus)
Nov 28 09:45:53 * skyfaller (n=nelson@wikipedia/Skyfaller) has joined #freeculture
Nov 28 09:45:58 <pyrak> i guess it just goes back to what i said about making them see the harm. because i've learned how to make our toughest audience see the harm, i think i'll know how to make everyone else see it also. just today i was starting to get my french teacher on board, she got pretty excited :)
Nov 28 09:46:02 <skyfaller> paulproteus: oh, woops, didn't see your hush, sorry :P
Nov 28 09:46:22 <pyrak> </answers> (sorry for taking so much time)
Nov 28 09:46:45 <paulproteus> Great, we're waiting on CDucruet and mllerustad to </answer> e-star's question and then we'll move to driscoll's general question, unless someone has another specific question to ask (if so, tell me!).
Nov 28 09:47:09 <paulproteus> e-star, If you want to try to answer your own question also, I'd appreciate it.
Nov 28 09:47:34 <mllerustad> My guess? It's the same question as to why there aren't more female developers and users of Linux. Most FC chapters seem to be initiated out of the computing/tech side of things, and while obviously most cover lots of other aspects of free culture, the leaders are usually those who were with it from the beginning, and share that techie seed of interest. And most of those people are dudes.
Nov 28 09:48:13 <K`Tetch> paulproteus - if you want hush, then set mode +m
Nov 28 09:48:34 <paulproteus> K`Tetch, I'd rather kick skyfaller when he embarrasses himself than use modes, but I can see why that would be useful. (-:
Nov 28 09:48:40 <CDucruet> It surprises me that this is the case actually because this is such a gender neutral movement. I don't think there is anything anything inherent to SFC that makes this so, however, I think one possibility is that few females feel technologically empowered in the same way men do
Nov 28 09:48:56 <CDucruet> also I really neglect to carry any gender stereotypes about passive/active roles carry over to the role of the proconsumer
Nov 28 09:49:14 <paulproteus> (Remember to </answer> when you're done.)
Nov 28 09:49:17 <CDucruet> which is the role I see myself in within the movement
Nov 28 09:50:04 <CDucruet> As a solution to this problem, I think it is important for the board to reflect a ratio of men to women that is one par with the ratio our organization hopes to see at all levels
Nov 28 09:50:48 <e-star> Yes, I was also going to say that many chapters emerge out of technology communities, where women are often underrepresented. I think it's important to get women involved in these tech communities, but also to reach out beyond them to communities where women are well-reprsented (art, music, writing, law, etc.) I think if we are able to bring the tech people into cultural issues, and the culture people into tech issues, then we coul
Nov 28 09:50:54 <mllerustad> I think there's been a lot of effort both on the national level and within chapters to reach out to other groups and other topics within free culture, and that's fantastic. Even if we're still not 50/50, there are more ladies--and more diverse interests, which is important in and of itself--in the movement now than there were a couple years ago. As time goes on, I think more chapters will appear whose common root is the a
Nov 28 09:50:54 <mllerustad> rtsy/"culture" side of free culture, rather than the open source movement. (I'd consider my chapter one of those.)
Nov 28 09:51:21 <parkerhiggins> e-star: got cut off at "we coul..."
Nov 28 09:51:45 <e-star> I think if we are able to bring the tech people into cultural issues, and the culture people into tech issues, then we could achieve a better gender balance across the board..
Nov 28 09:52:07 <paulproteus> e-star, "across the board" meaning "across the whole organization", not just specifically the Board we're electing?
Nov 28 09:52:18 * Yaco2 has quit (Connection timed out)
Nov 28 09:52:20 <epictetus> I think people in the art/music community are aware of the issues but a lot of them come at it from the other side... like the first thing any aspiring "pro" photographer usually does is start learning to protect their copyright
Nov 28 09:52:25 <e-star> paulproteus: no, in the very general sense
Nov 28 09:52:31 <e-star> not in the Board
Nov 28 09:52:39 <CDucruet> I agree with you e-star - the issue does not arrive from anything fundamental to the movement - rather it is a product of the interest groups we seek to involve - that is where we need to seek balance, and a better m:f ratio will emerge as a result of that
Nov 28 09:52:47 <skyfaller> paulproteus: question for grahl
Nov 28 09:52:49 <mllerustad> So time, and a bit of a helping hand with regard to not making FC tech-centric, and getting Free Culture news into outlets that aren't Slashdot, will eventually work things out, I think. :)
Nov 28 09:52:51 <CDucruet> </answer>
Nov 28 09:52:53 <mllerustad> </answer>
Nov 28 09:53:01 <e-star> </answer>
Nov 28 09:53:15 <paulproteus> I'd like to chime in that the board is going to be tragically America centric, and that I look forward to a day when we're not limited like that.
Nov 28 09:53:25 <paulproteus> Any more individual questions?
Nov 28 09:53:33 <paulproteus> skyfaller, Go ahead!
Nov 28 09:53:34 <Fear_of_C> skyfaller had one
Nov 28 09:53:39 * paulproteus missed that, oops
Nov 28 09:53:53 <e-star> paulproteus: we tried to nominate more int'l candidates; right now we only have one
Nov 28 09:53:53 <skyfaller> ... I only get one?
Nov 28 09:53:54 <CDucruet> OK all, I must depart
Nov 28 09:54:02 <paulproteus> skyfaller, Ask your question.
Nov 28 09:54:03 <skyfaller> CDucruet: ok, thanks for coming!
Nov 28 09:54:07 <CDucruet> Best to you all, see you on sunday!
Nov 28 09:54:12 <mecredis> ciao CDucruet
Nov 28 09:54:19 * paulproteus waves and thanks CDucruet
Nov 28 09:54:28 <Fear_of_C> bye
Nov 28 09:54:36 * CDucruet has quit ("CGI:IRC")
Nov 28 09:55:09 <paulproteus> Wow, CGI::IRC also didn't fail CDucruet.
Nov 28 09:55:21 <paulproteus> Anyway, skyfaller, ask your question of grahl.
Nov 28 09:55:22 <e-star> moving on?
Nov 28 09:55:38 <skyfaller> grahl: as paulproteus says, the board is a bit US-centric. You are the only person here today who is from overseas AFAIK, how does your experience outside the US affect your positions and what direction you would like to take the board / SFC? </answer>
Nov 28 09:55:54 <paulproteus> </question> - grahl, please answer. (-:
Nov 28 09:56:00 <skyfaller> erm, right :)
Nov 28 09:57:10 <skyfaller> ... is grahl still with us?
Nov 28 09:57:17 <e-star> paulproteus: should other people be asking questions at the same time to speed things up a bit?
Nov 28 09:57:26 <paulproteus> e-star, Yes, if they have them.
Nov 28 09:57:33 <mllerustad> we still all have driscoll's question to reckon with...
Nov 28 09:57:35 <e-star> right
Nov 28 09:57:39 <grahl> Most of my experience with volunteer organizations has been inside the US so I can't pretend that I'd have learned a different style of doing this there. Nonetheless, I hope to bring more SFC to Europe in particular next year whether elected or not.
Nov 28 09:58:14 <e-star> grahl: good news, we just got our first german chapter
Nov 28 09:58:25 <parkerhiggins> e-star: where is it?
Nov 28 09:58:34 <grahl> In general I'd hope to carry out the outreach to other organizations whether domestic or abroad.
Nov 28 09:58:35 <mecredis> yes and we've had interest from south america
Nov 28 09:58:46 <grahl> </answer>
Nov 28 09:58:56 <grahl> e-star: so i heard :-)
Nov 28 09:59:02 <e-star> Uni Bamberg
Nov 28 09:59:03 <mllerustad> I have to run ASAP, I have a store meeting...
Nov 28 09:59:07 <paulproteus> If others have one-on-one questions, then ask them now. If in 45s no one has any, we'll do driscoll's question and call it a day.
Nov 28 09:59:29 <skyfaller> mllerustad: thanks for coming!
Nov 28 09:59:37 <e-star> grahl: cool, we should talk more about int'l coordination stuff
Nov 28 09:59:51 <grahl> e-star: yes, but please after finals ;-)
Nov 28 10:00:00 <paulproteus> Okay, no more individual questions. Everyone answer driscoll's question (incl. driscoll) and that'll be a day. I'll paste it in a sec
Nov 28 10:00:09 <driscoll> To make it easier: All candidates: Beyond immediate issues like DRM, please identify one way in which a more free culture differs from the status quo.
Nov 28 10:00:15 <skyfaller> I already answered :)
Nov 28 10:00:23 <e-star> driscoll: wondering how you're defining immediate?
Nov 28 10:00:31 <paulproteus> Thanks, driscoll. (-:
Nov 28 10:00:34 <grahl> A more free culture...that seems incredibly hard to define, there are a million little things that could be better but I suppose if we could change some of the ground rules that would make copyright and patent law less litigious that would be more free.
Nov 28 10:00:55 <skyfaller> paulproteus: psst, if you're still free after the debate I'm free to work with you on the chapter reg form etc. a little bit
Nov 28 10:01:19 <pyrak> are we talking de facto or de jure "free"?
Nov 28 10:01:20 <Fear_of_C> a more free culture allows research, art, etc. to progress faster: people will no longer spend time re-implementing the wheel every time they want to create something, and there will be opportunity to safely build on research in new ways... no longer will the first rendition of a song be the only one, for example, but of the many remixes to follow, the result will reach far wider audiences and styles of listening
Nov 28 10:01:26 <pyrak>  :P
Nov 28 10:01:27 <grahl> On the other hand the free I'd really like to see is a more engaged and informed public that takes these ideas of a free culture beyond just distribution and creation of derivative works from creative output and bring that philosophy to many more aspects of our society.
Nov 28 10:01:27 <paulproteus> psst, all, if any of you is free post-debate I'm happy to do a show-and-tell on the current/new chapter form, which is *not* the CatWalk thing you used before but is now based on our wiki.
Nov 28 10:01:28 <driscoll> Immediate is a temporal qualifier.
Nov 28 10:01:44 <driscoll> I assume will win on DRM and it will be gone but "free culture" is a more long-term project.
Nov 28 10:01:49 <grahl> </answer>
Nov 28 10:01:55 <mllerustad> Short answer to driscoll's question: The day when I never have to go through the basic "what is free culture" spiel again, because virtually everyone has already been made aware of these issues and pays attention to them.
Nov 28 10:01:59 <parkerhiggins> paulproteus: i can make minutes out of the log, if somebody had logged this whole thing. do i talk to you about that?
Nov 28 10:01:59 <driscoll> pyrak: "free" as you define it.
Nov 28 10:02:03 <mecredis> I believe there are an enormous amount of organizations and groups that produce culture that is, or should be free. I see a large part of the free culture movement as "awakening" these intutions in older, established organizations. This means like the ACLU releasing their videos under CC, PBS using Wikis, etc. This is a facet that has yet to be really, aggressively, explored by the FC movement and I think is something properly bucks th
Nov 28 10:02:09 <Fear_of_C> not to say that we don't already have remixes and building upon things, but I think we will reach new levels of it when the culture itself has changed
Nov 28 10:02:11 <pyrak> in a more free culture, people don't have to jump through hoops to find out where to find images that they can legally add to their powerpoint presentation for english class that they want to post online
Nov 28 10:02:16 <paulproteus> parkerhiggins, Yes, that'd be great, and yes, you can talk to me once it's over.
Nov 28 10:02:19 <mecredis> did that get cut off?
Nov 28 10:02:28 <paulproteus> mecredis, Cut off at "properly bucks th"
Nov 28 10:02:30 <parkerhiggins> mecredis: yeah, at "bucks th..."
Nov 28 10:02:32 <Fear_of_C> </answer>
Nov 28 10:02:42 <mecredis> *bucks the "status quo…"
Nov 28 10:02:43 <mecredis> </answre>
Nov 28 10:02:51 <pyrak> i guess if we look internationally, net neutrality is key.
Nov 28 10:03:02 <mllerustad> </answer>
Nov 28 10:03:02 <e-star> A more free culture would be one that is richer in the material that people can access, reuse, and build upon. The public domain would be thriving, works would not stay in copyright for generations, and creative collaboration would result in a plethora of (as in speech) works.
Nov 28 10:03:13 <e-star> </answer>
Nov 28 10:03:31 <e-star> oops, free as in speech
Nov 28 10:03:48 <pyrak> of course in a free culture software is open source... and this is the hard part- but things like cell phone providers and ISPs
Nov 28 10:04:03 <skyfaller> I look forward to the day when it's easy to get involved with whatever you want, including such currently passive things as the evening news.</answer>
Nov 28 10:04:14 <e-star> The public domain would be thriving, works would not stay in copyright for generations, and creative collaboration would result in a plethora of free (as in speech) works. </answer>
Nov 28 10:04:33 <mllerustad> Alright, farewell y'all!
Nov 28 10:04:37 <e-star> (including the first sentence from above)
Nov 28 10:04:39 <pyrak> i guess we should focus on cell phone providers, no more locking phones to services, etc. functionality should solely be limited by hardware, not software.
Nov 28 10:05:04 <driscoll> In a more free culture, people value their participation in the creation of a shared history. They feel connected to earlier generations and can readily access their creative output.
Nov 28 10:05:41 <pyrak> and of course, copyrights would require filing forms, and not protect derivitive works so strictly. and last for a shorter time. we'd have a REALLY strong youtube culture. so much democratice free speech
Nov 28 10:05:44 * pyrak drools
Nov 28 10:05:57 <driscoll> </answer>
Nov 28 10:05:58 <pyrak> </answer>
Nov 28 10:06:17 * paulproteus pulls out the mop for pyrak's drool
Nov 28 10:06:54 <e-star> paulproteus: what are we going to do about asking the same questions next time?
Nov 28 10:07:04 <grahl> skyfaller: thanks for calling me, made me hurry more
Nov 28 10:07:06 <e-star> maybe everyone who wasn't here tonight should get the questions from tonight
Nov 28 10:07:07 <paulproteus> Thank you all for being well-behaved during this time of moderation! This concludes the first debate, unless someone has a burning question.
Nov 28 10:07:30 <paulproteus> e-star, Yes, I think that's fair. I think that all of you should be allowed to write longer answers to these, just like any other candidate can, also.
Nov 28 10:07:46 <paulproteus> Ending the debate in 30s unless I missed something (so speak up if I did).
Nov 28 10:08:04 <skyfaller> grahl: yeah, I should have called everyone who wasn't here!
Nov 28 10:08:22 <mecredis> ok gotta go do finals work
Nov 28 10:08:23 <mecredis> ciaooo
Nov 28 10:08:26 <e-star> paulproteus: it just might be a bit redundant to answer the same questions again..
Nov 28 10:08:34 <grahl> skyfaller: see, that's what the coordinator is for :-)
Nov 28 10:08:40 <oo7akbnd> awesome job guys. -love, your humble audience member
Nov 28 10:08:41 <skyfaller> grahl: pretty much :)
Nov 28 10:08:47 <paulproteus> (mapcar #'phone-call (filter *people* (lambda (person) (not (= (get-location person #freeculture))))))
Nov 28 10:08:52 <skyfaller> alright, who's posting the log?
Nov 28 10:09:00 <paulproteus> Okay, this is over, thanks a lot everyone.