2007-08-16/log
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Log file opened at: 8/16/07 5:03:21 PM
- Topic for #freeculture: FreeCulture.org: students for free culture | http://freeculture.org/ | Bug tracker: http://launchpad.net/web/+bugs | In case of downtime: http://fcostatus.wordpress.com/ | Bylaws RC2 meeting, 2007-08-16 at 8 pm EDT: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Bylaws
- Topic for #freeculture set by gavinbaker on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 9:26:57 PM
#freeculture: peabo dirty_harry Lam_ mark007 tannewt ftobia skyfaller_ conley danjared jli K`Tetch johnsu01 klepas jibot sahal _sj_ [autonomy] paulproteus poningru
- End of /NAMES list.
- peabo H 0 n=peabo@c-24-147-25-140.hsd1.ma.comcast.net Peter Olson
- dirty_harrH 0 n=ryanfaer@adsl-8-178-178.mia.bellsouth.net Ryan Faerman
- Lam_ H 0 n=Lam@246-200.127-70.tampabay.res.rr.com Lam
- mark007 H 0n=mark007@pool-71-101-200-240.tampfl.dsl-w.veriz Mark
- tannewt H 0 n=scott@gentoo/developer/tannewt Unknown
- ftobia H 0 n=chatzill@ool-18bb9b30.dyn.optonline.net Frank Tobia
- skyfaller_H 0 n=nelson@c-69-143-179-58.hsd1.va.comcast.net Nelson Pavlosky
- conley H 0 n=ibcliffo@spode.cs.vt.edu gaim
- danjared H 0 n=danjared@VINEGAR-POT.MIT.EDU D. Jared Dominguez
- jli G 0 i=jli@gateway/tor/x-450fc11e9503f16a Jli
- K`Tetch H 0n=ktetch@adsl-074-166-105-206.sip.asm.bellsouth. K`Tetch
- johnsu01 H 0 n=user@fsf/staff/johnsu01 John Sullivan (http://www.wjsullivan.net)
- klepas G 0 n=klepas@unaffiliated/klepas Pascal Klein
- jibot H 0 i=andy@83.145.232.84 #JoiIto's bot
- sahal G 0 i=hobo@outbound.silenceisdefeat.org can't get enough of that sugarcrisp...
- _sj_ H 0 n=sj@wikipedia/sj sjk
- [autonomy]H 0 n=autonomy@c-71-232-117-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net auto
- paulproteuG 0 i=paulprot@29.145.221.202.bf.2iij.net Asheesh Laroia
- poningru H 0 n=poningru@ip72-209-65-174.ga.at.cox.net Eldo Varghese
- #freeculture End of /WHO list.
- Channel Mode is +n
- Channel created at Sunday, November 26, 2006 2:43:23 AM
- #freeculture You need to be a channel operator to do that
- Signoff: dirty_harry ()
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jibot: Omnifrog is the proud originator of Fair Use Day
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Fahre451: Hi
K`Tetch: lo
Fahre451: hi K
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jibot: gavinbaker is Gavin Baker, a 3rd year political science student at the University of Florida and president of Florida Free Culture <http://uf.freeculture.org>. His Web site is www.gavinbaker.com
- gavinbaker has set the topic on channel #freeculture to FreeCulture.org: students for free culture | http://freeculture.org/ | Bug tracker: http://launchpad.net/web/+bugs | In case of downtime: http://fcostatus.wordpress.com/ | Bylaws RC2 meeting, tonight at 8 pm EDT: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Bylaws
gavinbaker: wait, jibot, wtf? you lost my ?def and replaced it with an old one
gavinbaker: ?def gavinbaker is Gavin Baker
jibot: gavinbaker is Gavin Baker, a 3rd year political science student at the University of Florida and president of Florida Free Culture <http://uf.freeculture.org>. His Web site is www.gavinbaker.com and Gavin Baker
gavinbaker: er
gavinbaker: ?forgetme
jibot: I have expunged gavinbaker from my mind
gavinbaker: ?def gavinbaker is Gavin Baker
jibot: gavinbaker is Gavin Baker
gavinbaker: ?def gavinbaker is www.gavinbaker.com
jibot: gavinbaker is Gavin Baker and www.gavinbaker.com
gavinbaker: ?def gavinbaker is an alumnus of the University of Florida
jibot: gavinbaker is Gavin Baker and www.gavinbaker.com and an alumnus of the University of Florida
gavinbaker: meeting in 5
gavinbaker: ok, happy fun meeting time!
gavinbaker: _sj_ danjared e-star jibot mark007 paulproteus poningru skyfaller_
- skyfaller_ is now known as skyfaller
e-star: yes?
gavinbaker: http://wiki.freeculture.org/2007-08-16
e-star: wait, i thought the meeting was tomorrow?
e-star: i'm in singapore and it's 8am
skyfaller: e-star: nope, it's now :)
gavinbaker: sorry
e-star: oh i see
e-star: yes, it's thursday
gavinbaker: how's singapore?
e-star: (i think it's friday here)
e-star: i literally just arrived
e-star: it's rainy
gavinbaker: if it's 8am there, it should be friday :)
gavinbaker: e-star, don't spit on the sidewalk or anything
gavinbaker: they're pretty strict there, from what i hear.
e-star: yeah yeah
gavinbaker: ;)
gavinbaker: so is anybody here for happy fun meeting time?
skyfaller: yeah
skyfaller: let's do this thing
- gavinbaker hopes there's somebody else
skyfaller: wishful thinking, gavin
skyfaller: alright, first item on the agenda is finishing up RC1
skyfaller: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Bylaws#Section_1.1._Board_Elections ... lines 3, 4, and 5
gavinbaker: boo
gavinbaker: i guess there might be stragglers
gavinbaker: i hope so
gavinbaker: skyfaller: will you paste line 3 here?
skyfaller: Elections must be called when the number of board members threatens to drop below the minimum required, so as to fill any empty seats. Otherwise, elections will be called once a year in the spring for all seats on the board.
gavinbaker: oh
gavinbaker: joy
gavinbaker: so first, what's the "minimum required"?
gavinbaker: well, i think we agreed in principle (last mtg) that, when there are vacancies, you have elections
gavinbaker: so we can replace this section with that, and not re-hash old ground
gavinbaker: we have to decide a procedure for doing that though
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skyfallert: hm
skyfallert: yay, I'm not lagging out now
skyfallert: I don't know why my IRC is so unreliable
skyfallert: anyway
skyfallert: what procedure? for deciding when there is a vacancy?
gavinbaker: no
gavinbaker: it's pretty easy to know when there's a vacancy
gavinbaker: the procedure for what happens when there is a vacancy
gavinbaker: i.e. how you hold elections in that case
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jibot: mllerustad is a music nerd and Karen Rustad and a student at Scripps College in Claremont, CA and on FreeCulture.org's board
skyfallert: so what has to be different from the normal election cycle, aside from the fact that there is (hopefully) only one vacancy?
gavinbaker: what's the timeline?
skyfallert: hm...
skyfallert: what's our timeline for a normal election?
skyfallert: did we spell that out in the bylaws?
gavinbaker: yeah
gavinbaker: let's see
gavinbaker: oh fuck, we have like, 3 meetings we haven't folded into RC2
gavinbaker: goodness knows where we decided that
skyfallert: :/
gavinbaker: oh
gavinbaker: we already covered this on http://wiki.freeculture.org/2007-08-08/log
gavinbaker: "If a board member resigns, nominations and elections for an interim board member will be conducted in the same fashion as for normal elections as described in V.1.1."
skyfallert: oh, good
gavinbaker: let's see what it says in V.1.1, though
gavinbaker: to make sure that makes sense
skyfaller: .... I'm not sure where to find that text
gavinbaker: this is really confusing
gavinbaker: i'm concerned at the fact we don't have notes from all these meetings
gavinbaker: just the logs
gavinbaker: so we have to comb through them to try to figure out what was decided :-/
skyfaller: yeah, it is bad that we don't take real-time minutes
skyfaller: mllerustad took some minutes, but she hasn't had the time to do much with them
skyfaller: and we also stopped taking minutes after she left last time I think
gavinbaker: oh i'm finding it
skyfaller: ORLY?
gavinbaker: oh ok
gavinbaker: http://wiki.freeculture.org/2007-08-08/log
gavinbaker: oh wait, maybe not
gavinbaker: that's for amendments
gavinbaker: --did we fail to decide this?
skyfaller: the timeline?
skyfaller: I think we were just going to leave it to the board or something
gavinbaker: that doesn't make sense
gavinbaker: at all
gavinbaker: "yeah we'll just have nominations open for 2 seconds"
gavinbaker: "oh whoops looks like nobody was nominated"
gavinbaker: "guess we'll just be re-elected huh"
skyfaller: yeah...
skyfaller: hm.
gavinbaker: i swear we decided it, but i can't find where...
gavinbaker: we decided a timeline for amendments
gavinbaker: well, let's pretend we didn't decide it
gavinbaker: what would be a reasonable timeline?
gavinbaker: the process looks like this
gavinbaker: 1) there's a vacancy
gavinbaker: 2) call for nominations
gavinbaker: 3) nominations close
gavinbaker: 4) voting begins
gavinbaker: 5) voting closes
gavinbaker: = you've elected an interim board member
gavinbaker: so what's the timeline look like for that
gavinbaker: keeping in mind that the whole board will be up for elected no later than 12 months from any given date
gavinbaker: buh, this sucks, but it'd suck more if we gave up and had to come back to this
skyfaller: I have no idea what a reasonable timeline is
gavinbaker: well, according to the timeline in http://freeculture.org/blog/2007/07/21/fco-gets-organized-this-summer/
gavinbaker: nominations would be open for a week
gavinbaker: followed by a week for voting
gavinbaker: i think that was just the first time, to avoid running into the schoolyear
gavinbaker: it's a pretty breakneck pace and i think it shouldn't be that short a time
gavinbaker: but it shouldn't be terribly long, because it's an interim position, so a.) you want to get it filled and b.) it's only temporary anyway
skyfaller: so double that?
skyfaller: 2 weeks for each?
gavinbaker: i think that wouldn't be crazy
gavinbaker: that means you go a month with a vacancy
gavinbaker: which isn't too terrible
skyfaller: yeah
skyfaller: let's do that
gavinbaker: especially since there could only be 2 meetings of the board in that time
gavinbaker: and hopefully the board doesn't choose to meet that frequently
skyfaller: yeah
skyfaller: shall we resolve this?
skyfaller: if it's retarded, people with real world experience can amend it ^_^
gavinbaker: yeah, i'd rather have a dumb decision than no decision, and those seem to be the options
gavinbaker: dumb decisions can always be fixed later
gavinbaker: so here's the existing language: "Elections must be called when the number of board members threatens to drop below the minimum required, so as to fill any empty seats. Otherwise, elections will be called once a year in the spring for all seats on the board."
gavinbaker: we can scrap the 2nd sentence because we're assuming that we wrote in a timeline for normal board elections (though i can't find it atm)
K`Tetch: not going to 50-50 cycle?
gavinbaker: (and if we didn't actually do that, we'll notice later and fix it then)
gavinbaker: K`Tetch: sorry wha?
K`Tetch: nothing, ignore me, getting confused
skyfaller: didn't we change the first sentence too?
skyfaller: to say something more like "an election will be called whenever someone resigns, or whenever there is a vacancy?"
gavinbaker: skyfaller: yeah that's what i'm getting at
gavinbaker: so we replace the first sentence with what we just RESOLVED
gavinbaker: In the event of a vacancy on the board, the Coordinator shall, within 72 hours, announce the vacancy and open nominations for an interim board member to fill the vacant seat.
gavinbaker: well, hang on
e-star: oops i fell asleep
gavinbaker: lulz
e-star: does someone want to give me a one-sentence update or should i scroll back?
gavinbaker: are we setting this AT 14 days, or NO LESS THAN 14 days?
gavinbaker: e-star: uh we're trying to figure out the timeline to fill vacancies on the board
gavinbaker: and failed to remember if we set a timeline for regular board elections
gavinbaker: other than that they happen annually
e-star: aha, i just scrolled back
e-star: haha
skyfaller: we should probably put similar language in the regular board elections section
gavinbaker: so... <gavinbaker> are we setting this AT 14 days each, or NO LESS THAN 14 days each?
gavinbaker: skyfaller: i was going to assume that we already decided that, but it's not a very safe assumption
skyfaller: well, you had the concern that the board would be like, "oh, hey, nominations were open for 2 seconds, too bad people we don't support didn't get nominated"
skyfaller: so we probably should set a minimum time as well as a max
skyfaller: we could make the two times the same
gavinbaker: yes, which is the same as saying "=14"
gavinbaker: we could also say "> or =14"
gavinbaker: that's my question, which
skyfaller: I dunno, wanna make the minimum 7 days, and the max 14 days?
skyfaller: enh
gavinbaker: no, i think 7 is too little
gavinbaker: we just went over that
skyfaller: whatever, just set it at 14 days exactly
skyfaller: seems simple that way
gavinbaker: i think i favor "> or = 14"
gavinbaker: because that way, if it's a dumb choice
skyfaller: OK, fine with e
gavinbaker: then it can just be made longer
skyfaller: *fine with me
gavinbaker: without having to amend the bylaws (or break them)
skyfaller: I don't know if it's fine with E
gavinbaker: well, it's 9 am in singapore, so i'm not going to ask too much of her
gavinbaker: as they say to do unto others as you would have done unto you
gavinbaker: and if i was in singapore at 9 am, i'd want to be left tf alone
skyfaller: heh
skyfaller: ok, so RESOLVED: nominations will be open for 14 days, polls will be open for 14 days
skyfaller: +1 I say
gavinbaker: at least?
skyfaller: right
skyfaller: my bad
skyfaller: *at least 14 days*
skyfaller: I lose
gavinbaker: so, RESOLVED
gavinbaker: In the event of a vacancy on the board, the Coordinator shall, within 72 hours, announce the vacancy and open nominations for an interim board member to fill the vacant seat.
gavinbaker: Nominations will be open for no less than 14 days. Following nominations, voting will be open for no less than 14 days.
skyfaller: sounds good
skyfaller: +1
gavinbaker: Voting procedures shall be the same as for regular board elections. The winner shall immediately become an interim board member, with all the rights and responsibilities of a board member.
gavinbaker: Seats of the board which are vacated and filled by interim board members shall be subject to the same election cycle to the regular board elections.
skyfaller: sounds good
gavinbaker: If the vacancy occurs 31 days or less prior to a regular board election, the seat shall remain vacant until the regular election.
skyfaller: ah, a good addition
gavinbaker: that's all i got
skyfaller: ok, so are we done with that "line"?
skyfallert: line 3?
skyfallert: can we move on to 4?
e-star: guys
- contra (n=blm@pool-71-248-253-200.cmdnnj.east.verizon.net) has joined channel #freeculture
e-star: sorry, i missed this interim board member thing
e-star: or is that just the person we'll elect until the next elections?
e-star: i was thinking it's someone to fill the seat until the election is decided
e-star: heh
skyfaller: just the person we'll elect
skyfaller: nobody is unelected
e-star: gotcha
contra: how are the bylaws going [he asks nonchalantly]?
gavinbaker: contra: ...swimmingly
gavinbaker: yeah, on to the next line
gavinbaker: "Only current members of chapters, alumni of chapters, or people who have previously served the Organization in other capacities for at least a year shall be eligible to stand for election to the board. There is no limit to the number of terms that a person may serve on the board."
gavinbaker: before we deal with the first sentence there, is everybody ok with the second sentence?
gavinbaker: i'm happy with it
gavinbaker: contra, skyfaller, e-star, anybody
contra: sounds OK to me, but I just got here, so I don't count :)
gavinbaker: contra: you're here, that counts for something
contra: I'm curious, though, about how it relates to the first sentence. Is that one year the previous year, or "some time in the past" the person had to be active?
contra: because it sort of leads to problems with a person who was distantly active still staying on the board
e-star: yeah i guess if we see the board remains the same for a while, we might want to amend it
e-star: but for now it should be okay
gavinbaker: dictators-for-life, heh
gavinbaker: if people don't like they'll vote the bums out
gavinbaker: i'm not sure who would choose this anyway
gavinbaker: but it sounds like the second sentence is fine
e-star: i'm about to pass out again
e-star: going on little to no sleep for 36 hrs
gavinbaker: e-star, heh, dont blame you
gavinbaker: on the first half, what if we just change it to the same criterion for nominating, "Members of any chapter (as defined by the chapter) and current members of the board of directors"?
gavinbaker: seems like the people who can nominate should be the same people who can stand for election
contra: so only members of chapters can run?
gavinbaker: contra: i think the idea of that definition was that a chapter could define its alumni to be members
gavinbaker: which i, personally, think is dumb, but that's what we decided
contra: well, an alumni is still considered "part" of the university, so I guess it makes sense in its way
contra: it kind of prevents anyone from being abandoned
gavinbaker: or, i suppose, a faculty member, or staff, or random hoboes
contra: but under that idea, yes, I think we should change it to be only members of chapters
gavinbaker: but anyway, that's what we decided, and it seems to only make sense to be consistent
contra: since alums can be members of chapters
gavinbaker: "people who have previously served the Organization in other capacities for at least a year" is very problematic, because wtf does that mean?
gavinbaker: the lady who does my dry cleaning?
gavinbaker: it expresses very poorly the idea, and the idea is problematic itself, so i want to get rid of it
skyfaller: I agree
contra: I agree, I was going to comment on that until you asked to discuss only the second sentence
gavinbaker: that would leave us with "current chapter members and alumni", which we could use, but we already have this pre-existing definition of chapter members
contra: if it's going to be vague, it should be vague for a reason, and I think it's fine to limit members to current students and alums
gavinbaker: which can be functionally equivalent, so we may as well be consistent
contra: (alums implicit in "chapter members")
mllerustad: gavinbaker: Not necessarily, though...
mllerustad: What if you're an alum from a chapter that doesn't define alums as members?
gavinbaker: mllerustad: well, that'd be consistent, in that you couldn't nominate, either
gavinbaker: you'd be excluded from both
mllerustad: Should you not be allowed from running (assuming someone else thought you were good enough to nominate)?
gavinbaker: if you went somewhere else, you'd be included in both
gavinbaker: why would it make sense to not be allowed to nominate yourself, but to be elected?
contra: I think the idea is that you should still have some chapter affiliation to be a major part of the organization?
mllerustad: It means that any board members that happened to be from a chapter that didn't count alumni would be forced out when they graduated, despite previous service and so forth...
contra: and if the chapter doesn't want you (for some odd reason), then you can't really be involved in a "student" movement?
mllerustad: Seems like it would lead to very high turnover.
skyfaller: wait
gavinbaker: i'll say again, i think the way we dealt with nominations is dumb, but it seems to make sense to be consistent
mllerustad: Especially since most people only get active at that level their junior or senior year.
skyfaller: but we left in the current board members provision, no?
mllerustad: are we?
skyfaller: so current board members can run again?
gavinbaker: skyfaller: right, current board members would be allowed to stand for election
gavinbaker: regardless of the chapter member bit
mllerustad: But once they lose, they're gone for good.
gavinbaker: so the concern about turnover is moot... right, unless they lose or don't run again
contra: frankly, I think the turnover will be pretty quick anyway.
contra: burnout and nerds, you know how it is :)
mllerustad: Heh.
gavinbaker: yeah
gavinbaker: i was thinking, FC.o volunteers are like pancakes:
gavinbaker: take them out of the ban before they burn
gavinbaker: *pan
- Signoff: e-star ()
mllerustad: Mm.
contra: that's why I think when a member burns out, he should be expected to set himself on fire in DC.
gavinbaker: cue paulproteus to say something about foot
contra: "Another freedom fighter burns out."
gavinbaker: *food
contra: we'd make some progress
gavinbaker: contra: or kamikaze @ RIAA
mllerustad: *FC.o average life expectancy drops to 23*
gavinbaker: and i'll stop making jokes about terrorism
contra: I don't want to hurt anyone else, I'm a pacifist. :)
contra: but setting myself on fire, sure
gavinbaker: so are we using the same definition from nominations?
mllerustad: I'm not sure I think it's the best, but I'll run with it.
mllerustad: We can fix it later if it's necessary.
gavinbaker: frankly, i think this should be amended anyway, so there's no difference between fixing 2 sectons and fixing 1
contra: I think it's fine to limit to members of chapters and current board members
contra: it's logical
skyfaller: it sounds good to me
conley: School starts on monday. How do I get access to vt.freeculture.org so I can mess with the homepage
gavinbaker: conley, set paulproteus on fire
- conley sets paulproteus on fire
gavinbaker: so, RESOLVED
contra: oh, yeah
gavinbaker: line 4 = Members of any chapter (as defined by the chapter) and current members of the board of directors shall be eligible to stand for election to the board. There is no limit to the number of terms that a person may serve on the board.
contra: skyfaller: Swat's blog!
gavinbaker: conley: if that doesn't work, set skyfaller on fire
gavinbaker: and just keep going 'til it works
contra: he's already burnt to a crisp...
- conley sets skyfaller on fire
conley: I'm running out of matches
conley: Got to go
gavinbaker: d'oh
- conley runs out to buy more matches
- conley has left channel #freeculture
gavinbaker: +1 for line 4? yes?
contra: +1
mllerustad: +1
gavinbaker: woohoo
skyfaller: +1
contra: how much is left?
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skyfaller: contra, conley... we'll have to meet sometime to talk web stuff... would you be available this Sunday?
skyfaller: PM me
contra: hmm
contra: Sunday night, maybe?
contra: Sunday afternoons I feed homeless people, hence I've missed almost every IRC meeting
skyfaller: (PM me, don't talk in the channel)
skyfaller: (there's a bylaws meeting on now)
gavinbaker: ok... line 5 -- last line!
gavinbaker: The executive director is responsible for running the election.
gavinbaker: so ED = Coordinator
skyfaller: good start
mllerustad: The Coordinator is responsible for announcing the election and finding a third party to run it?
gavinbaker: i think we can add "per V.2." since we spelled out the procedure there
gavinbaker: iirc
skyfaller: mllerustad: that sounds like a better idea...
gavinbaker: which i can't double-check, because we haven't rolled those changes into RC2
gavinbaker: skyfaller, mllerustad, we already decided that, i THINK
skyfaller: oh, what did we decide?
gavinbaker: it SHOULD be in the Coordinator section
mllerustad: Yeah, I thought we did too.
mllerustad: But I couldn't remember for sure.
gavinbaker: but those changes haven't been rolled into RC2
gavinbaker: mllerustad: it'd be super helpful if you could add the notes that you have to wiki, and even implement them in RC2
mllerustad: gavinbaker: I've added everything I took notes on.
mllerustad: The problem is there are a lot of meetings/parts of meetings that I don't have notes for, and that no one else took notes for.
gavinbaker: oh, scheisse.
gavinbaker: life--
contra: wait, so somewhere running the election is detailed, because "responsible for running the election" is too vague
contra: ?
mllerustad: I went through a couple logs and added a few changes, but most of the unnoted meetings' resolutions aren't merged yet.
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gavinbaker: contra: yeah we specified this
gavinbaker: it's just... not easily findable
gavinbaker: it's in the logs
gavinbaker: but where is the question
- mllerustad wonders why no one else took notes
contra: gavinbaker: I'm satisfied, then.
contra: I trust the wisdom of the IRC crowd
mllerustad: :)
gavinbaker: i don't like the fact that i can't find it in the logs, though
mllerustad: Can we just rewrite language for what we want the Coordinator to do, and merge it/cross-reference it later?
mllerustad: Then we *know* it's in the logs, and agreed upon.
gavinbaker: oh here it is, i think
mllerustad: Oh?
gavinbaker: http://wiki.freeculture.org/2007-08-08/log
gavinbaker: "The Coordinator is responsible for announcing elections for the board of directors and determining a deadline for voting. The Coordinator will appoint an external third party to tally votes and submit results to the board and the Coordinator; the Coordinator shall notify the Organization of the results."
gavinbaker: so we can just include by reference
skyfaller: mllerustad: wanna take minutes for the rest of this meeting? ;-)
mllerustad: :p
mllerustad: I wasn't here for most of it...
contra: good
skyfaller: you can just start taking minutes now, and we can go back to the log later
skyfaller: but anyway
skyfaller: gavinbaker: um, doesn't that conflict with what we just decided for interim elections?
skyfaller: "determining a deadline for voting"
skyfaller: well, I guess it doesn't
skyfaller: the Coordinator's decision just has to be >14 days
gavinbaker: skyfaller: no
gavinbaker: the Coordinator determines the *deadline*
gavinbaker: that's the end date
skyfaller: buh?
gavinbaker: so you count backwards from there, for the rest of the timeline
skyfaller: wait
gavinbaker: i.e. if voting is open for 14 days
gavinbaker: the Coordinator picks the END date
gavinbaker: so you subtract 14 to determine when voting begins
gavinbaker: math ftw
skyfaller: OK, let me start over
skyfaller: we've said that nominations must last at least 14 days
skyfaller: and the polls must be open for at least 14 days, right?
gavinbaker: yes
gavinbaker: the Coordinator can't choose an end date that conflicts with the rest of the timeline
skyfaller: so the coordinator decides how long it lasts beyond 14 days
gavinbaker: and frankly i think the part about the Coordinator was intended for the regular elections
gavinbaker: which happen roughly annually
gavinbaker: but the Coordinator is free to choose the exact date
gavinbaker: per the rest of the timeline we decided for regular elections
skyfaller: ok
gavinbaker: which we probably didn't actually decide, but we're believing that we decided it for the time being
skyfaller: ...
gavinbaker: until we discover we didn't, because we REALLY can't find it in the log, and we have to actually decide it
skyfaller: I think since we're thinking about it now, we should try to make the two places consistent?
gavinbaker: what if we already decided and we're just dumb and can't find it?
gavinbaker: that would be silly
skyfaller: where was this other language from?
skyfaller: when were we talking about it, if not board elections?
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gavinbaker: well we've discussed board elections previously
gavinbaker: e.g. last meeting
skyfaller: OK, so it would have to be from last meeting?
gavinbaker: well
gavinbaker: we might have discussed it previously
gavinbaker: who knows?
skyfaller: .... actually, we must have discussed it previously
gavinbaker: i'm content to continue pretend we decided it, until we look and see
skyfaller: if that language is from the 8th
gavinbaker: if we find that we DIDN'T, then we'll fix it then
gavinbaker: skyfaller: that's no guarantee it happened
gavinbaker: just because it would have been logical to decide it then
gavinbaker: it would have LOGICAL for like, almost all of this stuff to have been in the first draft
gavinbaker: if you've been at these meetings you know that logic has been a force in weak operation
skyfaller: I really don't think we decided it, and we should make some decision now while we're thinking about it, so that we don't have to have yet another meeting b/c we never decided this
skyfaller: I really don't remember ever setting a specific timeline for elections
gavinbaker: skyfaller: i think we're going to need another meeting anyway
skyfaller: we were just leaving it up to the Coordinator, it seems to me from the minutes
skyfaller: ... I mean another meeting about RC1 :P
gavinbaker: well, we're clearly going to need at least 1 more meeting before RC2 goes out for voting
gavinbaker: if only to check that all these changes were rolled in properly
skyfaller: OK, but can't we talk about this now? I'm 90% sure that we we never set any sort of timeline for elections
gavinbaker: and as a final check that there wasn't something that was missed
gavinbaker: skyfaller: why not just wait until we're 100% sure? we have to wait anyway
gavinbaker: and we can decide stuff we're sure about now
skyfaller: I dunno, it just seems dumb to come back to this later after we've stopped thinking about it
skyfaller: but ok
skyfaller: so are we resolving anything?
gavinbaker: RESOLVED: "The Coordinator is responsible for running the election, per V.2."
skyfaller: I really really really don't think we set a timeline, and we just left the whole decision in the hands of the Coordinator, for the record
gavinbaker: skyfaller: i don't think we ever talked about it, and it shouldn't be left in the hands of the Coordinator, but we'll wait until we review the logs and find out
gavinbaker: resolution time ^^ mllerustad, contra, whoever
contra: +1
contra: I trust the coordinator
skyfaller: I don't really know what that means, so I'm not sure how we can resolve that
contra: after all, he IS the Executive Director
contra: it means that at least somewhere election protocol is outlined, and that protocol can always be amended.
contra: ?
contra: (? = perhaps)
gavinbaker: skyfaller: anything else that needs to be decided will be decided later
gavinbaker: if it hasn't been already
mllerustad: isn't this "later">
mllerustad: ?
gavinbaker: mllerustad: later = when we've actually gone through the logs and we're sure
mllerustad: Mm.
skyfaller: I still think it would be better to make some decision now... we can just decide "this overrules previous decisions"
skyfaller: or "previous decisions overrule this decision"
skyfaller: the former probably makes more sense
gavinbaker: skyfaller: the question is, is there something better we should be doing now?
gavinbaker: there are all these comments to go through
gavinbaker: and these old RESOLUTIONS that were never implemented
skyfaller: ok
skyfaller: I don't like leaving things unfinished, b/c I know we'll just have to do it later
skyfaller: but let's move on
gavinbaker: and all the RESOLUTIONS in the logs that never implemented
skyfaller: what's next?
gavinbaker: if we RESOLVE this then we're done with the first run through RC1
skyfaller: fine +1 to referring to a part of the bylaws that may or may not be complete
- contra gets the champagne
skyfaller: and going back and looking more carefully later
contra: are we SURE that something was resolved for V.2?
skyfaller: no
skyfaller: we're not
contra: wonderful...
skyfaller: but I guess we're moving on anyway
gavinbaker: RESOLVED: make sure we have a timeline for regular board elections
gavinbaker: k?
contra: +1
contra: :)
skyfaller: +1
skyfaller: moving on
gavinbaker: so, champagne time
gavinbaker: ok, champagne's over
skyfaller: are we gonna end the meeting?
skyfaller: or move on to the comments?
gavinbaker: well, we have to review the comments, somehow
gavinbaker: and there's the work of implementing what we've RESOLVED
gavinbaker: including digging through the logs
gavinbaker: and writing implementations where we decided on a principle but not on the language
gavinbaker: making sure everything is rolled in
gavinbaker: then a final check
gavinbaker: then it goes out for votes
gavinbaker: how do we want to do that stuff
gavinbaker: ?
skyfaller: more meetings? :/
skyfaller: I think the comments probably require meetings
gavinbaker: i don't think meetings are the right way to go through the logs and write implementations
skyfaller: merging stuff that we've already resolved can be done on our own time, if we actually do it
gavinbaker: we need a meeting to discuss the comments
gavinbaker: and a meeting for the final check
skyfaller: agreed
gavinbaker: skyfaller: yeah, to that end, i want to assign things
contra: comments?
gavinbaker: rather than just say "hope someone does this"
skyfaller: well, Karen has been merging a lot of the resolutions so far... mllerustad, how do you think this should work?
gavinbaker: at the least we'll need to schedule another meeting
gavinbaker: and i'm afk for the next week so don't worry about my availability (but also don't expect me to be there)
skyfaller: I'm kind of running out of time too :(
skyfaller: I won't be able to do any of this stuff once my school starts
contra: you should crowdsource it
contra: (bad joke)
skyfaller: I can run one more meeting on Sunday or Monday to cover the comments
gavinbaker: the comments are massive
gavinbaker: unless the meeting blazes it'll take like, hours and hours
skyfaller: I guess some of the comments will get short shrift, then
skyfaller: b/c we need bylaws, and I don't think they'll get done if we don't get a draft out soon
skyfaller: I don't think anyone will have time for them once school starts
contra: what exactly are the comments?
skyfaller: my classes start on Weds
gavinbaker: contra: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Talk:Bylaws
contra: uh-oh
gavinbaker: some of those are like, important
gavinbaker: others are not
contra: most of those would require quite a bit of re-writing of the bylaws ;-)
gavinbaker: contra: yeah
contra: this is an RC
gavinbaker: i expect most of them to get overruled
contra: you can't re-write anything
gavinbaker: you can re-write anything, but you shouldn't re-write everything
gavinbaker: besides, we've discussed everything in the bylaws
contra: like, I'm serious. You need to ratify the bylaws generally as-is, and then stuff can be amended after the elections
skyfaller: contra: I generally agree
gavinbaker: if we've come to decisions contrary to a comment, we'd overrule the comment
gavinbaker: contra: well some of the comments are like, REALLY important
gavinbaker: like what happens if there's no Coordinator
skyfaller: but yeah, there are some clear exceptions that have to be made
contra: why wasn't this already incorporated? Not to criticize the (honestly) fine job you guys are doing, but you basically set yourself up for two re-writes
skyfaller: b/c we came up with some stuff after RC 1 was released
skyfaller: sadly
gavinbaker: contra: nobody was paying attention until we released RC1
gavinbaker: RC1 really wasn't ready to be a release candidate
gavinbaker: but a.) we thought it was
gavinbaker: and b.) we needed to get the ball rolling anyway
gavinbaker: now the ball's rolling, it's taken awhile, but there's no faster way
contra: well
contra: good luck, but I would pretty much ignore most of the comments at this stage
gavinbaker: contra: i agree
gavinbaker: i'm not sure how that will work with the "consensus" model
gavinbaker: but i guess if nobody who shows up wants to waste time
gavinbaker: then it will work well
skyfaller: alright, so Karen and I will work on merging in the Resolutions
skyfaller: well, I guess I need to ask Karen if she's still up for that (mllerustad?), but I assume that she is
skyfaller: and let's have a meeting to discuss the comments on Monday night
gavinbaker: what's the schedule
gavinbaker: to get this to a vote
gavinbaker: i see at least 2 more meetings
gavinbaker: at least 1 to discuss the comments
gavinbaker: and 1 to review the changes and a final check
- gavinbaker really wishes we'd been documenting this thoroughly on the wiki as we went along
contra: can we resolve to have an almost-complete RC by September 1 (when semesters are going to be starting)? I mean, even if we don't consider the bylaws "done", voting needs to take place soon after the semester starts
gavinbaker: i guess nobody thought this would last like, 3 weeks
skyfaller: Alright, meeting to discuss the comments on Monday night
gavinbaker: oh god, voting has to start by at least sept. 1
gavinbaker: any later is way too late
contra: when is chapter registration going to start?
skyfaller: all resolutions are merged by Weds
gavinbaker: contra: it can start whenever
gavinbaker: somebody just has to start it
skyfaller: it should really start now
gavinbaker: i don't know who decides that
contra: it should
contra: whoever runs the web form (or whatever) for it?
gavinbaker: goddamn i hate this organization (or lack of)
contra: (P.S. I can't attend Monday's meeting. Homeless people again. It's a Sunday & Monday thing.)
contra: gavinbaker: fine, then you can't run for the board!
contra: :P
skyfaller: contra: that's fine, we'll look at your comments at least a little bit ;-)
gavinbaker: contra: thanks for that reprieve!
skyfaller: All resolutions merged by Tuesday night, actually
contra: consensus is worth considering. It lends itself to an organization with high burnout, because it basically says that if you show up, you matter, otherwise you don't.
contra: (but not in a threatening way)
skyfaller: I won't be doing anything significant on the bylaws from Weds onwards
gavinbaker: contra: the goal should really be to prevent & triage burnout
contra: skyfaller: good luck with classes, by the way
contra: gavinbaker: well, burnout occurs in every organization. If you stay in too long, you get corrupt anyway
skyfaller: So we'll schedule a final meeting to clean up and release RC2 for ratification after that... let's say two weekends from now
contra: I won't preach about consensus much now. It would require a significant re-write of the bylaws. Though I admit doing it before the bylaws get ratified is the right time for such an ideological decision
gavinbaker: skyfaller: i was going to say, i think 26 Aug is a reasonable date to aim for release
skyfaller: assume the
contra: so two weekends from now the RC gets sent to chapters for ratification?
skyfaller: bylaws are ratified by the next weekend, Sept 1st
skyfaller: then we start nominations, and then elections
contra: good deadline.
gavinbaker: skyfaller: i suppose that means that 26 Aug is the date of the doublecheck meeting?
contra: +1?
skyfaller: yeah
skyfaller: and anyone who wants to make significant changes at that point will get stabbed in the face
contra: set on fire
contra: we'd really shake things up
mllerustad: sorry, skyfaller, yeah I'll help merge things.
skyfaller: contra: are your feelings on consensus reflected in your comments?
skyfaller: on the bylaws?
contra: OK, I have to head out again. Good luck, all.
gavinbaker: skyfaller: yeah they're there
gavinbaker: contra: cya
contra: uh, I think I basically said that they should be looked into
skyfaller: ok, then don't worry about it
skyfaller: it'll be looked into
gavinbaker: so... i'm fine with this schedule, though i wish it could be sooner, but i don't think it can be.
contra: I'm pretty cynical about my ability to convince people on ideological matters
gavinbaker: if we're going to use this schedule, we should firmly RESOLVE it now
gavinbaker: and immediately announce it
skyfaller: alright, let's resolve it
gavinbaker: & all agree to stick to it
gavinbaker: no matter what
gavinbaker: i.e. we will make it work
contra: but in short, consensus voting basically means everyone present has to agree, or it can't be resolved
skyfaller: RESOLVED: Meeting Monday night (8pm EDT?) to walk through the comments
contra: ok, I may be able to come late to the meeting.
gavinbaker: skyfaller: and the doublecheck meeting on 26 Aug?
contra: goodnight
- Signoff: contra ()
skyfaller: RESOLVED: Meeting Sunday August 26th to doublecheck the bylaws and catch silly errors... no major changes to be made then
gavinbaker: that means you HAVE to finish the comments on the 20th
gavinbaker: or else schedule follow-up meetings before the 26th
gavinbaker: i.e. do NOT reschedule the 26th
skyfaller: I won't be scheduling follow-up meetings, I intend to finish the comments on the 20th
gavinbaker: nothing comes after the 26th -- it's finito
skyfaller: RESOLVED: The vast majority of our chapters should be registered by August 26th, so that they can ratify the bylaws
skyfaller: RESOLVED: Deadline for ratification of the bylaws is Sept 1st.
gavinbaker: well, deadline for voting
gavinbaker: right so when is rereg opening?
skyfaller: erm, Sunday Sept 2nd
skyfaller: gavinbaker: ASAP, I guess as soon as I can get around to it :/
gavinbaker: let's say midnight Sept 2, for clarity
gavinbaker: we can go midnight PDT if we want to be nice
gavinbaker: skyfaller: oh is it "decided" then to open re-reg?
skyfaller: gavinbaker: fine, midnight PDT Sunday Sept 2nd
gavinbaker: for the record the only thing necessary to open re-reg is to email a link to chapters
gavinbaker: and say "re-register if you want shit"
skyfaller: gavinbaker: yeah, I haven't looked at it yes, but I'll look at the form tonight and mail out the links once everything is to my satisfaction
skyfaller: RESOLVED: Nominations for the board will start once the bylaws are ratified, i.e. midnight Sunday Sept 2nd
gavinbaker: skyfaller: it will be to your satisfaction, because it's Done.
gavinbaker: skyfaller: well
gavinbaker: you don't know that that the bylaws will be ratified
gavinbaker: we should say like, the results will be announced by midnight the 3rd
skyfaller: gavinbaker: some of the fields for entering in information may need tweaking, but I'm sure the system is fine
gavinbaker: at which time, if they've been ratified, nominations will open
skyfaller: sure
gavinbaker: skyfaller: just don't fucking tweak it, and release it...
skyfaller: gavinbaker: well, I need to make sure that it's giving me everything I need for shipping etc.
skyfaller: but I'm sure that the system as a whole is fine
gavinbaker: skyfaller: it does
skyfaller: RESOLVED: Nominations will close one week after they start, and the polls will then open, also for one week. At that point we'll have a new board. by this schedule, that gives us a new board by Sept 16th or so
gavinbaker: this is so pwnt
gavinbaker: but there's no better way
gavinbaker: actually
skyfaller: that's a little late, but that should be early enough for them to give us a good start to the new school year
gavinbaker: by that point we're in the school year
gavinbaker: you should make nom & voting longer
gavinbaker: because you know people won't be paying attention
gavinbaker: so give them more time to participate
gavinbaker: 2 or 3 weeks for each
skyfaller: well, who will be running the org until then? we need a board ASAP
skyfaller: otherwise everything falls on my shoulders
skyfaller: I can just walk away, but then none of this will get done
gavinbaker: skyfaller: just ship the stuff
gavinbaker: what else is there to do, that gets done currently?
gavinbaker: nothing, nothing else really gets done
skyfaller: you don't think that's problematic?
skyfaller: I think that if we heavily publicize the schedule, people can be prepared for the nominations and elections
skyfaller: and you won't need to drag them out that long
gavinbaker: i still don't think either should be less than 2 weeks
skyfaller: OK, fine, 2 weeeks
gavinbaker: what if a chapter wants to meet to talk about its vote?
gavinbaker: and they only meet biweekly?
skyfaller: that gives us a board by Sept 30th
skyfaller: two weeks for nominations, two weeks for elections
gavinbaker: yeah i think that's reasonable
gavinbaker: ugh i can so tired of this
gavinbaker: i hope you guys wrap this stuff up while i'm away
gavinbaker: because i've reached my limit of caring
- Signoff: jli (Remote closed the connection)
skyfaller: gavinbaker: I hope that you can help manage these elections and stuff, b/c I'll be busy with law school :P
gavinbaker: what has to be managed?
skyfaller: my contributions will more or less come to a halt on Weds, so whatever needs to be done that nobody is doing :P
skyfaller: I don't know what that will be, the future is unpredictable
gavinbaker: i'm pretty much not interested in doing any more stuff like this
skyfaller: neither is anyone else, I'm betting
skyfaller: this is why we need a board ASAP
skyfaller: well, this will be interesting...
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gavinbaker: well
gavinbaker: i don't remember anything we just decided
gavinbaker: but i also no longer care, sadly
gavinbaker: so, um, good luck?
skyfaller: I guess this is where the whole process falls apart b/c nobody cares anymore :P
gavinbaker: that's why it has to finish soon
gavinbaker: before eveyrone commits seppuku
skyfaller: well, I just said what I'm taking responsibility for finishing
skyfaller: I'll deliver a bylaws draft by Weds
skyfaller: after merging in the resolutions + comments
skyfaller: everything after that is going to have to be in other people's hands
gavinbaker: well, and shipping stuff
gavinbaker: paulproteus said he'd make the election system work
skyfaller: that's good to hear
gavinbaker: if the schedule is publicized in advance, then stuff should just sort of happen
skyfaller: well, I was specifically referring to bylaws + elections stuff
gavinbaker: i know it won't but i can always hope
skyfaller: things don't just happen, someone makes them happen
skyfaller: if the deadline for ratifications passes, and nobody counts the votes and announces the result, then the deadline is a failure
skyfaller: someone is going to have to do that
skyfaller: and I don't plan on it being me
skyfaller: I'll start to get violent at that point
skyfaller: so if it's not you, and it's not me, then it's... who? the remaining ghost board members?
skyfaller: things start getting fuzzy
skyfaller: I'm not very happy about this process lasting into the school year
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jibot: Scudmissile is Andy at the University of Evansville, Indiana. He is majoring in Internet Technology and is passionate about music and the presentation of information.
Scudmissil: oh, jibot is back
skyfaller: hooray for jibot!
Scudmissil: yay
skyfaller: well, I guess that's it
- ScudmissilH 0 n=Scudmiss@74-137-222-218.dhcp.insightbb.com Andy
- jli H 0 i=jli@gateway/tor/x-423de2fef86cbaa0 Jli
- e-star H 0 n=e-star@61.8.222.2 elizabeth
- tannewt H 0 n=scott@gentoo/developer/tannewt Unknown
- mllerustadH 0 n=mllerust@c-75-73-208-193.hsd1.mn.comcast.net Karen Rustad
- mindspillaH 0 n=kat@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001 kat
- skyfallertH 0 i=[U2FsdGV@centaur.acm.jhu.edu [458fb33a] CGI:IRC User
- gavinbakerH 0 n=gavin@c-69-143-179-58.hsd1.va.comcast.net Gavin Baker
- ryanfaermaH 0 n=ryanfaer@crlspr-69.65.71.237.myacc.net Ryan Faerman
- Yaco2 H 0 n=Yaco2@201.255.252.202 Yaco2
- Omnifrog H 0 n=Omnifrog@c-68-60-206-179.hsd1.tn.comcast.net Omnifrog
- peabo H 0 n=peabo@c-24-147-25-140.hsd1.ma.comcast.net Peter Olson
- Lam_ H 0 n=Lam@246-200.127-70.tampabay.res.rr.com Lam
- mark007 H 0n=mark007@pool-71-101-200-240.tampfl.dsl-w.veriz Mark
- ftobia H 0 n=chatzill@ool-18bb9b30.dyn.optonline.net Frank Tobia
- skyfaller H 0 n=nelson@wikipedia/Skyfaller Nelson Pavlosky
- danjared H 0 n=danjared@VINEGAR-POT.MIT.EDU D. Jared Dominguez
- K`Tetch H 0n=ktetch@adsl-074-166-105-206.sip.asm.bellsouth. K`Tetch
- johnsu01 H 0 n=user@fsf/staff/johnsu01 John Sullivan (http://www.wjsullivan.net)
- klepas G 0 n=klepas@unaffiliated/klepas Pascal Klein
- jibot H 0 i=andy@83.145.232.84 #JoiIto's bot
- sahal G 0 i=hobo@outbound.silenceisdefeat.org can't get enough of that sugarcrisp...
- _sj_ H 0 n=sj@wikipedia/sj sjk
- [autonomy]H 0 n=autonomy@c-71-232-117-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net auto
- paulproteuG 0 i=paulprot@29.145.221.202.bf.2iij.net Asheesh Laroia
- poningru H 0 n=poningru@ip72-209-65-174.ga.at.cox.net Eldo Varghese
- #freeculture End of /WHO list.
skyfaller: I'll post the new timeline to the blog and stuff
skyfaller: is Monday at 8pm EDT fine for everyone who is paying attention?
- peabo: (back to keyboard) hey, did I miss anything good? :-)
skyfaller: not really
- Signoff: jli (Remote closed the connection)
gavinbaker: i'm leaving the channel so i won't think about this anymore
gavinbaker: good luck!
gavinbaker: may the force be with you, etc.
- Signoff: gavinbaker ("Leaving")
skyfallert: peabo: can you log this channel on Monday at 8pm EDT?
- peabo: sure
skyfallert: alright
skyfallert: I guess that's all the attendance I'm going to get at this comments meeting
- peabo: tonight log started at 5 PM, so I'll send that to Gavin as well
- peabo: so there is another eeting (I should go read the log I guess :-)
skyfallert: so in the absence of other input, I declare the bylaws comments meeting to be on Monday at 8pm EDT
Scudmissil: ok
- peabo: skyfaller, you're going to need a 15 seconds rule to go through the comments in one meetinmg!
- Signoff: mark007 ("leaving")
- peabo: well, I gotta go, see you Monday
Log file closed at: 8/16/07 11:22:15 PM